burty and sunshine

[veiledchamsunshine]

i have just bought a new male chameleon burty. I have put them in the same viv as my female sunshine is gravid. He seems to be quite nervous of her and avoids her but she keeps following him and wants to play. Every pair i have seen together are quite aggressive towards eachother. is this normal for them not to be botherd by eachother?

 

[Julirs]

They should not be housed together. You should always quarantine new animals, always, until you are sure they are free of parasites, etc. And since you female is gravid, you should never introduce additional stress by doing something like adding a male into the situation. Chameleons should be housed separately as a rule. Chameleons do NOT "play". You are causing them stress which WILL affect their health.

 

[Hugh Wahl]

Agreed you are playing with fire. It might look playful, but Im sure it is causing unnecessary stress to both animals. The female is probably running the male away because she is gravid.

 

[veiledchamsunshine]

I have done what the reptile shop has told me to do... he said if i do not introduce a male to her she may get egg bound and OBVIOUSLY i dont want that as I care about my chameleon. When i took her to the reptile shops they were surprised at how much of a sociable chameleon she is. The chameleons arent going to be staying together i have another viv. This is temporary until they mate. Every other female chameleon i have seen with males have hissed and turned a dark colour so no my chameleon isnt stressed.

 

[fluxlizard]

The egg bound thing is a 20 year old rumor, long since corrected. Nobody who knows what they are talking about believes it anymore. It is not true- your female doesn't "need" to mate or die egg bound. I know it is 20 years old because I got in on breeding veileds pretty early on when not too many others were breeding them yet and I was among those who believed/spread this rumor back then.

There are many females several years old on these forums who have never been bred.

And keeping them together constantly isn't the way to get your male interested in breeding anyway. Quite the opposite.

 

[veiledchamsunshine]

as i said them being housed together is a temp thing. i took advice off people who breed them for a living. i dont want to take any chances. 6months is the average age for a chameleon to reach sexual maturity (i know you dont have to breed them by this age) but as she is carrying eggs i would rather them be viable eggs as the chance of getting egg bound is increased if the eggs are not fertile.

 

[veiledchamsunshine]

i will post pictures of how relaxed there becoming together

 

[Julirs]

Are you saying your female is 6 months old? This is too young to breed her as she has not completed growing. It sounds like you are talking to people who care less about their animals then they care about making more of them to sell. How do you know she is gravid? If she is already obviously gravid, it is more than likely too late to breed them and you are just causing her stress.

 

[Vegas Chad]

Seems like you got some bum information.

 

[veiledchamsunshine]

no my chamaeleon isnt 6months old i wouldnt try and breed her if she was, she isnt stressed as she is staying her normal colour, not hissing or acting any different than she does usually. shes gained weight at the back of her stomach no where else and is coming up in blue and yellow spots the past few weeks. i have spoke to reptile cymru and they have given me advice to put them together short periods of time every so often to let them breed

 

[kaylie]

Chams are ONLY supposed to see each other if you intend to breed them and have babies. Just because there is no sign of stress right now doesnt mean that it's not building up. My cham used to let me hold him all the time, no stress colors, then one day he flipped out on me and I havent been able to touch him in months. Unless you actually want to breed and raise the babies, I would not let them be together at all for any time because the more clutches she has, the shorter her life will be. I have never heard of having to have a male with the female when she has infertile eggs. Not in a single case on this forum have I read that, and I'm sure many here are just as experienced as that shop, if not more.
To be honest, and most will agree, most pet shops have no idea what they're talking about. The same can sometimes go for specialty reptile stores. They have a little knowledge about a lot of animals, not a lot of knowledge about a few animals. This forum will give you the best information you could possibly get.

 

[veiledchamsunshine]

wow really!? theres two close to where i live and one has a very good reputation in the uk. the other i wouldnt bother taking any information from they tried to sell my boyfriend a white spotted gecko to live with his chinese water dragon. and they also had a chameleon in a viv with a basilisk. we were shocked that they were so careless there. so ye i do no what you meen by not taking advice from shops unless you trust them. how old is your chameleon? i'll post some pictures of sunshine and my new one when hes settled properly.

 

[donnak0125]

Chams are ONLY supposed to see each other if you intend to breed them and have babies. Just because there is no sign of stress right now doesnt mean that it's not building up. My cham used to let me hold him all the time, no stress colors, then one day he flipped out on me and I havent been able to touch him in months. Unless you actually want to breed and raise the babies, I would not let them be together at all for any time because the more clutches she has, the shorter her life will be. I have never heard of having to have a male with the female when she has infertile eggs. Not in a single case on this forum have I read that, and I'm sure many here are just as experienced as that shop, if not more.
To be honest, and most will agree, most pet shops have no idea what they're talking about. The same can sometimes go for specialty reptile stores. They have a little knowledge about a lot of animals, not a lot of knowledge about a few animals. This forum will give you the best information you could possibly get.

yes, i've had totally wrong or incomplete information from chain pet stores!

 

[gemmatony10]

I bought my 3 veiled chameleons in November, advertised as a "breeding trio". They came in a huge 6 foot converted cabinet, and was told by the previous owner that they were living happily together, and I have to admit, they are still living "happily" together....although I do plan on spilting them up very soon.

Not because they are not getting on, but because I dont want them to over breed, and tire out my females, and ive blackmailed my hubby into building me new enclosures, so he can have my cabinet for his water dragons lol.

Is it possible that chameleons can learn to tolerate each other, or do we just not give them a chance to, because its what we are told ??????

All of mine come together onto the "feeding branch" everyday when I hand feed them, happily pass each other, and step over each other to get to where they want to go. Ive accauly just had one of my females lay her first (hopefully fertile) clutch with us in the viv beside the other two

I consulted my local reptile expert, who specilises in chams about them living together when I 1st got them, and he told me it might possibly stress them out more to seperate them. He also asked me to not take advice from people on forums as "gospel" and to observe my chams, and to not think as a human...but to think as a chameleon...example....she is not scratching at the glass because she wants out to play, there is something obviously scaring her etc etc.

Very good advice that I tend to follow, observe and follow through how I see fit. The second I see any signs of stress that I think would affect my chams health in anyway, I would have them seperated in a heart beat.

(before anyone comments, the pic is of when I 1st got them, the substrate is no longer in there, and the ceramic has been replaced for a spot bulb )

 

[veiledchamsunshine]

ye i think some chameleons are different... some will get stressed more than others. i love your viv btw sunshine is completely unfazed by the male which i was really shocked about because they CAN become quite aggressive. and if your chameleons arent stressed being around eachother i dont think you should seperate them because people on forums say so. they would only be able to tell you after they have seen them together. im going to try and get a bigger viv soon!

 

[Julirs]

You are right-some chameleons are different, but the fact is most are the same. After you have kept chams for awhile, and spent some time on the forum and read all of the stories about the chams that are sick from stress due to husbandry issues, and then die, you may be thinking differently.

 

[Ace]

sorry...to me it is sort of rude to receive good info on how to properly care for chams that majority of the forums even peope in the Uk, and others agree on how ot care for them, and you are tossing aside years of reseach and epxerience as if they were nothing...

i wouldnt be surprised your pair will go down hill either from eachother or your husbandry skills

breed if you want, but dont breed just because

if you want both to live properly for many years, than seperate them...

 

[Olimpia]

At the very least, Julirs gave you excellent advice about not putting a new chameleon in with any other until you are sure he is healthy. This is true about reptiles, birds, ferrets.... even dogs, if you don't know if they all have their shots. He should be separated for a couple months so you make sure he is not giving your female parasites or infections, even if he looks fine. The last cham I got came with an infection, that he didn't manifest until a week after I'd gotten him. Had I put him together with anyone else at this time he could have spread it and then I'd have 2 sick chameleons.

Secondly - if your female is already gravid it is too late to have them fertilized. I'm going to quote a site that talks about bird eggs (same process as in reptiles):

Fertilization

After entering the cloaca of the female, the sperm, containing the male's genetic information, travels up the oviduct. At the end of the oviduct is an ovum, or egg, which contains the female's genetic information. Fertilization takes place when the male's sperm penetrates the egg, causing the genetic information of both parents to fuse. Fertilization does not necessarily take place during or soon after mating. Some bird species release fertilized eggs up to 70 days after mating takes place.

Egg Shelling and Laying

Once fertilized, the egg begins traveling through the oviduct. As it travels, coatings and membranes are added to it, forming a shell. Once the shell is formed, the egg is ready to be laid and incubated until ready to hatch.

Therefore, if she's already making the eggs, it's too late for any sperm to pass through the shell and make any difference. Those eggs are infertile regardless of what you do at this point.

We can't force you to do anything, but now you have two good reasons to separate them until she is ready to breed next time, when she is receptive but not yet gravid. This gives you time to research breeding more carefully, so that you are well prepared and ready for hatchlings and everything that comes with the territory.

 

[carol5208]

I would like to make a comment on the picture of the viv! I would not have the lights on the INSIDE of the enclosure! It looks as if the bulb to the left is coming too close to your chameleons casque for my comfort. Sorry!!!! Also is that bulb provide uvb and uva all in one???

 

[dagy24]

I have to be honest and say I'm not sure why you bothered posting if you were not intending to follow any advice at all. I mean, I'm not trying to be confrontational or rude, but everyone here is giving you the *correct* advice and yes, I'm sure many chameleons can tolerate being together if they have to be. A zoo near me insists on housing male and female chameleons together and so far the male has killed two females who he was otherwise cohabitating with successfully for an extended period of time. Just because they "seem" happy now doesn't mean they ARE and doesn't mean they always will be. I was told by an employee friend that there was never any signs of stress and they otherwise seemed fine together (although he knew it was a bad idea, the powers that be suggested this set up...)

I mean, I just think it's silly to come to the forum and ask and then find another person here who thinks that they don't need to listen to the advice given here about husbandry and then say things about how you shouldn't have to separate your chams just because the forum said to. I'm not trying to be totally condescending, I'm just saying, you can't just pick and choose what advice to follow because it suits your already preconcieved notions. Well, you can actually... But then whats the point of even asking?

Also, if your female is already gravid mating her now will do nothing in terms of the fertility of her eggs. She's more likely to become eggbound if she doesn't feel secure when she needs to lay. She should be housed alone if she is gravid with a laying bin in her enclosure.