Breeding Chameleons for our benefits?

[JackP308]

So whats your take on it. I been breeding chameleons and uroplatus geckos for past few years with ups and downs. In the end its been for fun , learning experience , challenges and I really do love the geckos and chameleons never been about the money. Ive never really cared about the money but I have sold plenty of clutches off and some members here gotten some of my great chameleons as well as sponsors and companies which ill never know what happened to my chameleons. Recently my gf which is Vegan does not like me selling or even breeding anymore. I have pet stores and all kinds of people wanting chameleons. She fears they won't get the proper attention care and be locked up in cages forever and that they should be in nature and not for us to breed. Now I don't know what to think. Am I or are we wrong for breeding chameleons in general for ourselves. What are the benefits other than keeping people from buying wild caught. I really enjoy it and was good keeper and was proud of the chameleons I have breed and raised. So just curious on whats your take on breeding chameleons. Its probably been talked about a bunch but hey here it is again. Thanks

 

[Carlton]

So whats your take on it. I been breeding chameleons and uroplatus geckos for past few years with ups and downs. In the end its been for fun , learning experience , challenges and I really do love the geckos and chameleons never been about the money. Ive never really cared about the money but I have sold plenty of clutches off and some members here gotten some of my great chameleons as well as sponsors and companies which ill never know what happened to my chameleons. Recently my gf which is Vegan does not like me selling or even breeding anymore. I have pet stores and all kinds of people wanting chameleons. She fears they won't get the proper attention care and be locked up in cages forever and that they should be in nature and not for us to breed. Now I don't know what to think. Am I or are we wrong for breeding chameleons in general for ourselves. What are the benefits other than keeping people from buying wild caught. I really enjoy it and was good keeper and was proud of the chameleons I have breed and raised. So just curious on whats your take on breeding chameleons. Its probably been talked about a bunch but hey here it is again. Thanks

This is something most of us with keen concern for the animals we keep share. There are good and bad sides to captive production. I feel most of us also settle down somewhere in the middle of "nothing should be kept confined by humans" and "there's nothing wrong with keeping any animal of interest for human enjoyment or use". That is up to your own personal sense of value and no one can dictate it other than yourself. You can choose to be influenced by others...not a bad thing because it makes you think it through more...but the decision is yours to make.

Good: The more we know about the physiology and behavioral requirements of these species the more likely we will be able to maintain captive populations if it becomes a hedge against extinction in the future. Things happen to wild populations, and species with very restricted ranges are very vulnerable. A tsunami could wipe out an entire population of something, as could a disease or logging. Much of what we learn from breeding some species can be extrapolated to apply to other more vulnerable species. We may learn some critical things about diseases, habitat requirements, effects of medications, effects of genetic depression or inbreeding, help our exotic vets get experience with more situations, all sorts of things because we have bred them for multiple generations.

Until humans decide they no longer have an interest in keeping exotic animals at all (whether they make the decision because they are vegan, humane, PC, its too much work or too expensive), producing captive individuals does take some pressure off wild populations. Any one country might decide not to allow exotic imports, but other nations may not agree and continue demand. On an individual scale, it seems more humane to reduce the number of wild individuals who end up captured, shipped all over the world, suffer fear and injury during their journeys even if they do end up in good hands at the end. Many don't survive the trip. Captive animals have a better chance and may suffer less as they are used to life with humans. While there is demand for such animals even from zoos, we owe it to them to understand them as best we can.

Life in the wild isn't necessarily better. There are hazards, predators, accidents, competition, exposure to extremes, pollution, habitat loss, vandalism, and cruelty there too. We can't ask them, but the basic needs of our favorite herp species may be pretty straightforward. Not all animals can be satisfied with limited space. Migratory, highly mobile, super intelligent, high energy species are not really suited to life in confinement obviously. Other species that maintain finite territories and wouldn't leave them during their lives may not care as much.

Think about all the good relationships YOU created through the work you enjoy. You have also kept up people's interest and understanding about such species. Without interest or devotion, humans' concern over the wild individuals can be lost. Humans are fickle...if they don't get exposed to exotics in homes, commerce, exhibitions, or through clubs, they may not notice or care when the wild populations disappear beyond recovery.

Bad: Captive breeding can be done badly too. Some percentage of any captive produced pet does end up in a bad situation. You can't control the fate of every animal you produce, so have to decide what is acceptable. It is one major reason I don't breed my herps. I don't "need" to do it, and making money never meant anything either. I did work with a captive breeding effort for a very difficult frog species, but mainly because I was lucky enough to end up with known female male pairs and had just the right conditions to try. But, if I had been successful I would have needed hundreds of homes for babies, or put them into zoo collections.

Captive breeding can create demand for something that probably shouldn't be on most people's pet wish list. Captive breeding might promote greed and profit minded people, but most of us already know you aren't going to become a cold cash-minded millionaire from breeding chams, Uroplatus geckos, or most other animals.

Trade in wc animals does affect the planet's commerce, relations between nations, a sense of world community and connection, as well as concern about habitat loss and climate change, genetic diversity, and how humans are dependent on a healthy ecosystem. People learn to care about their world because they are exposed to its wildlife. Would you rather have them see wildcaught "ambassadors" for their species or captive produced ones?

At a very basic humanity level, whether you breed animals or capture them, they teach us humanity and compassion, often more easily than human-to-human relationships do. Without compassion and respect for beings other than ourselves we are doomed.

 

[absolutbill]

Very well said, Carlton! A couple of years ago I bought an extremely friendly and docile Ambiliobe. This isn't unusual, but I felt like I wanted to take my experience in cham-keeping to another level, so I bought a female to pair with him in the future. She was slow-growing, so I've bided my time and in the meanwhile I've watched people breed their chams, work hard to find them good homes, only to watch those people re-sell those same chams only months later on the classifieds here. This made me re-think my decisions and I believe I will not be breeding my 2 chams - the stress of worrying about good homes down the line for their offspring isn't worth it to me. I'd much rather have 2 pets, than breeding stock.

I love to see some of the rarer (in the US) species being worked with by our senior members on here, but am happy to leave such responsibility in their hands. Maybe in the future when I am more confident in my abilities, and have more spare time I'll delve into breeding, or working with less common species, but for now I'll just devote my time and energy to the 3 that I have. Just my 2 cents.

 

[fluxlizard]

So whats your take on it.

My take is that you might want to think about running, not walking, to the nearest exit.

Seriously, if this relationship is getting serious, you might want to consider that she is already finding that her moral value system is not lining up with yours, and she is trying to "fix" you to make you more acceptable to her value system.

"Fixed" animals are left gender neutral.

I agree with what Carlton said. But a few additional thoughts for you-

The first is that animal husbandry is an instinct that is very much a part of the "human animal". It's in our "nature" as human beings. Even primitive humans who live a prehistoric lifestyle (native aboriginals) in south america and the islands and so forth take wild animals as pets. Parrots, monkeys, etc.

I myself started catching lizards as pets as a preschooler. At the time I didn't know anyone else with a lizard. I had never been to a pet shop. I didn't know they weren't "pets". I just had that instinct, would go out in the yard catch them off the fence put them in shoeboxes under my bed and my father would come find them when I was not around and would release them back where they came from.

Life in the wild isn't necessarily better.

I read once about a study done on green iguanas in the wild. 90 something percent were dead by their first birthday. The remaining less than 10 percent steadily died away until by year 7 none were remained alive. Pet iguanas can easily live 10-15 years with good care. Chameleons are the same. Most species live a couple of years in the wild. Most can double that with good care in the terrarium. Most reptiles follow this pattern- only a very small percentage survive disease and predation to become reproductive adults.

Trade in wc animals does affect the planet's commerce, relations between nations, a sense of world community and connection, as well as concern about habitat loss and climate change, genetic diversity, and how humans are dependent on a healthy ecosystem. People learn to care about their world because they are exposed to its wildlife.

Indeed, plus properly managed it can have a positive effect on the survival of a species overall. Anybody worried that deer are going extinct in spite of hunters removing zillions from nature annually?