Bee pollen...

[kinyonga]

In another thread...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/edema.180385/page-3#post-1718567
@DocZ said..."It does have some fat soluble vitamins, including D, although for the life of me I can’t find a resource with D3 levels in bee pollen (@kinyonga )"...

After thinking about it and searching for numbers on it, I decided that there likely isn't a definitive number for the amount of D3 or even other vitamins/nutrients in bee pollen (unless all pollens collected have the same amounts of all nutrients in them...which I can't see happening.)

That thinking is what led me to this link...
https://healthywithhoney.com/bee-pollen-composition/

So...once again, bee pollen as a supplement may need to be looked at a little more closely to ensure we don't overdose the chameleons on nutrients. And once again, captive care won't be identical to what th chameleon would get in its native land IMHO.

I need to investigate pollens further to decide if they are different enough to matter. Perhaps even pollinators have preferences for different flowers? Maybe they even visit plants because they have certain nutrients they need and the plants can meet them?

 

[kinyonga]

One interesting study...
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpls.2020.611877/full

Do bees prefer certain flowers for reasons?
https://wildlife.org/how-bumble-bees-balance-their-diet/

https://www.ars.usda.gov/news-event...-flower-pollens-improve-honey-bee-gut-health/

https://ento.psu.edu/news/pollen-nu...atterns-of-bee-species-host-plant-preferences

https://protectingbees.njaes.rutger...utrient-ratios-in-pollen-shape-bumble-bee.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6694784/#!po=56.2500

https://jecoenv.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s41610-020-0149-9

Enough for now.

 

[Beman]

I did not read through everything. But dang you are the best at researching and finding info!
I figured out too much of a good thing means it is a bad thing with bee pollen. I take a hard pass now when it comes to using it in everything.

 

[kinyonga]

Thanks for the compliment @Beman !
I think inhave an unusual way of wording searches that leads me to things....not sure though.

Everything in moderation is what I think we need to do...try to get a balance without relying on any one thing too much!

 

[kinyonga]

If you want to help the bees and maybe a few other insects maybe you'd like to plant some of these?
https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/better-habitat-for-bees

 

[Highway61]

My wife planted a few of these "Hot Lips" around the house and they attrack more bees and hummingbirds than any feeders.

 

[kinyonga]

"It turned out that the wild bee is particularly in need of nine atoms: phosphorous, sodium, manganese, magnesium, potassium, iron, calcium, zinc and copper"...
https://appliedecologistsblog.com/2019/05/20/re-defining-bee-friendly-plants/

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I've not had to use BP with Ol' Mr. GrumpyPants, but it seems to have helped getting O' Stinkeye (beardie) to eat his greens. Even then we don't use it for every feeding.

 

[snitz427]

I use it primarily for gut loading. Sometimes I'll sprinkle some on (wet) BSFL. The pollen sort of dissolves and my theory is that its easier to digest or pass, that way.

I've been adding a lot of orchids to my enclosures for the aesthetic value, but also with the intention of it serving as a source for natural pollen. I throw fly larva in the substrate - so now, I hope, when they emerge, they will pollinate the flowers before being eaten. Everybody but the fly wins!

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I've been adding a lot of orchids to my enclosures for the aesthetic value, but also with the intention of it serving as a source for natural pollen.

I wasn't sure if orchids are considered "safe" or not, so I poked around a little.

https://chameleonacademy.com/plants/ Orchids mentioned only by reference—not on the list
https://caskabove.com/chameleon-safe-plants Orchids not mentioned
https://www.madcham.de/en/pflanzen-fuers-terrarium/ Only Moth Orchids on list
https://www.chameleons.info/l/safe-and-unsafe-plants/ Orchids not mentioned

The archives weren't much help either.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/search/1627255/?q=orchid&c[title_only]=1&o=relevance

One thing that did catch my eye came from a 2014 post:

All commercially grown orchids are regularly sprayed with an array of toxic chemicals, especially fungicides. Many of these compounds are too dangerous for the home gardener to use. Even the flowers are sprayed. Many of these chemicals are systemic, meaning they go into the plant tissues. Any seller who tells you they have un-sprayed orchids, is either unaware, or lying to sell a plant.

While you could try to wash these spray residues off, quite a few orchids groups are sensitive to soaps. Washing them could result in foliage and flower damage.

Some orchids are quite toxic on their own. Most data is about farm animal poisoning, but one should take it as cautionary for any animal consuming them.

Orchids are also unsuitable because their new leaves and young flower spikes are soft and easily damaged by animal claws.

So for these reasons, I do not recommend orchids inside any animal enclosures.

I have no idea—not an orchid person—but I thought I should mention it.

 

[Beman]

I use it primarily for gut loading. Sometimes I'll sprinkle some on (wet) BSFL. The pollen sort of dissolves and my theory is that its easier to digest or pass, that way.

I've been adding a lot of orchids to my enclosures for the aesthetic value, but also with the intention of it serving as a source for natural pollen. I throw fly larva in the substrate - so now, I hope, when they emerge, they will pollinate the flowers before being eaten. Everybody but the fly wins!

I have used orchids as well. Although I had a heck of a time getting them to bloom but they grew like crazy. I think I had them too far away from the lights for blooms.

Careful giving it straight... I am pretty sure this is why Beman got edema. Once I cut it out and stopped putting it directly on feeders only leaving it in the gutload his subsided.

 

[snitz427]

I wasn't sure if orchids are considered "safe" or not, so I poked around a little.

https://chameleonacademy.com/plants/ Orchids mentioned only by reference—not on the list
https://caskabove.com/chameleon-safe-plants Orchids not mentioned
https://www.madcham.de/en/pflanzen-fuers-terrarium/ Only Moth Orchids on list
https://www.chameleons.info/l/safe-and-unsafe-plants/ Orchids not mentioned

The archives weren't much help either.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/search/1627255/?q=orchid&c[title_only]=1&o=relevance

One thing that did catch my eye came from a 2014 post:


I have no idea—not an orchid person—but I thought I should mention it.

Unfortunate news is that ALL commercially produced plants are sprayed with these same chemicals. Pesticides, fungicides, bactericides, and viricides (that require PPE to apply). That's one of several reasons that I thoroughly wash any plant prior to placing it in my enclosures. What is even more dangerous is that many may apply systemics, which you cannot wash away and could potentially be ingested if an animal ate the foliage. Microplastics in the slow release ferts used.

Best practice is to always wash your plants, gently with Dawn or another antisurficant, and repeat until you can no longer see residue before placing them in a viv. Water spots may still be visible if you are not wiping the leaves and/or using RO, which is ok. For animals like frogs, who absorb through their skin, its extremely important. Many frog keepers will grow plants out for a long period of time, in order to take a new cutting that has never had chemical contact. Edit to add: also repot your plants in new soil (free of slow release ferts, perlite, or anything accidentally ingestible). If you are going bioactive, just shake or gently rinse the roots in lukewarm water to remove as much as possible before placing into new soil or enclosure.

Don't take the "safe plant" lists referenced above as gospel. Some plants on those lists ARE considered toxic, but written off as "safe" becaue chameleon keepers have not witnessed ill effects from them. There are thousands of orchid species that are endemic to Madagascar and other tropical areas. Orchids are very commonly used in vivariums, and are considered non-toxic by the ASPCA (which has a very informative database of toxic v. non toxic plants, which types of animals may be affected, and what their toxicity level means). There may be an outlier or two but, generally speaking, safe to use.

 

[Lindasjackson]

I have several orchids because I love them. I do not have them in Eustis enclosure because I’m afraid. They do have to be fertilized regularly so they grow and bloom and I’m just not sure of them being safe because of that. Eustis is a Jackson’s so he doesn’t eat plants and he rarely climbs on anything but the branches near the top of his cage. He has a regular route that he patrols near the top.

 

[snitz427]

I wasn't sure if orchids are considered "safe" or not, so I poked around a little.

https://chameleonacademy.com/plants/ Orchids mentioned only by reference—not on the list
https://caskabove.com/chameleon-safe-plants Orchids not mentioned
https://www.madcham.de/en/pflanzen-fuers-terrarium/ Only Moth Orchids on list
https://www.chameleons.info/l/safe-and-unsafe-plants/ Orchids not mentioned

The archives weren't much help either.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/search/1627255/?q=orchid&c[title_only]=1&o=relevance

One thing that did catch my eye came from a 2014 post:


I have no idea—not an orchid person—but I thought I should mention it.

I just spot checked each of those links, and each one has plants listed that are technically considered "toxic." I know for chameleon academy, they researched which plants were eaten by veiled w/o observed adverse reactions. So good guidelines and suggestions, but not the hard fast rule or list.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Unfortunate news is that ALL commercially produced plants are sprayed with these same chemicals. Pesticides, fungicides, bactericides, and viricides (that require PPE to apply). That's one of several reasons that I thoroughly wash any plant prior to placing it in my enclosures. What is even more dangerous is that many may apply systemics, which you cannot wash away and could potentially be ingested if an animal ate the foliage. Microplastics in the slow release ferts used.

Good to know...

Best practice is to always wash your plants, gently with Dawn or another antisurficant, and repeat until you can no longer see residue before placing them in a viv. Water spots may still be visible if you are not wiping the leaves and/or using RO, which is ok. For animals like frogs, who absorb through their skin, its extremely important. Many frog keepers will grow plants out for a long period of time, in order to take a new cutting that has never had chemical contact.

I'll pass on Dawn—nasty stuff.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=dawn+detergent+toxic

Don't take the "safe plant" lists referenced above as gospel. Some plants on those lists ARE considered toxic, but written off as "safe" becaue chameleon keepers have not witnessed ill effects from them.

Usually when I post that list, I include the admonition, "Be sure to read all the text & notes."

There are thousands of orchid species that are endemic to Madagascar and other tropical areas. Orchids are very commonly used in vivariums, and are considered non-toxic by the ASPCA (which has a very informative database of toxic v. non toxic plants, which types of animals may be affected, and what their toxicity level means). There may be an outlier or two but, generally speaking, safe to use.

Like I said:

I have no idea—not an orchid person—but I thought I should mention it.

File it under, "If you see something, say something."

 

[Beman]

 

[snitz427]

I have several orchids because I love them. I do not have them in Eustis enclosure because I’m afraid. They do have to be fertilized regularly so they grow and bloom and I’m just not sure of them being safe because of that. Eustis is a Jackson’s so he doesn’t eat plants and he rarely climbs on anything but the branches near the top of his cage. He has a regular route that he patrols near the top.

I have had pretty good success w/o the fertilizers...but I am also of a weird mindset where I choose orchids based on their foliage, and not the blooms! If it blooms, its a bonus. But I have gotten blooms w/o fertilizer use - its been more dependent on lighting for me. Some require cooldown periods, too. Since I dont care if it flowers, I just let it do its thing in the enclosure. If I see actual signs of nutrient deficiency, I'll add to it, but otherwise the plants have all done pretty well just living off the chameleon & bug poop + tiny bits of decaying material at their roots. Most epiphytes get their nutrients from the rain, poop, and decaying matter that's gotten tangled in the roots.

Could perhaps try throwing a tiny bit of insect frass on the roots. Mine have a tiny amount of decaying matter from leaf litter and such - but otherwise I dont add any fertilizer.

 

[Kaizen]

In another thread...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/edema.180385/page-3#post-1718567
@DocZ said..."It does have some fat soluble vitamins, including D, although for the life of me I can’t find a resource with D3 levels in bee pollen (@kinyonga )"...

After thinking about it and searching for numbers on it, I decided that there likely isn't a definitive number for the amount of D3 or even other vitamins/nutrients in bee pollen (unless all pollens collected have the same amounts of all nutrients in them...which I can't see happening.)This this this! Pollen from Malagasy wild-flowers is unlikely to be similar to american alfalfa pollen.

That thinking is what led me to this link...
https://healthywithhoney.com/bee-pollen-composition/

So...once again, bee pollen as a supplement may need to be looked at a little more closely to ensure we don't overdose the chameleons on nutrients. And once again, captive care won't be identical to what th chameleon would get in its native land IMHO.Love this too! Note, we condemn dog food as bug feed because it has too much protein, but bee pollen has the same amount of protein (~22%). Not saying it’s bad, but too much of a good thing and all that.

I need to investigate pollens further to decide if they are different enough to matter. Perhaps even pollinators have preferences for different flowers? Maybe they even visit plants because they have certain nutrients they need and the plants can meet them?Try apiculture sources and publications here. Those bee nuts are pretty on the ball. Also, menuka honey—made from pollen and nectar collected from manuka trees, has some properties that other honeys don’t. So this makes all kinds of sense! No idea why I’m replying in red like a husbandry review, but I can’t get the hang of partial quotes, and I always end up with like 10 green boxes in my comments. Besides, if anyone deserves fancy red letters, it’s you!

 

[snitz427]

I'll pass on Dawn—nasty stuff.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=dawn+detergent+toxic

Like I said:

File it under, "If you see something, say something."

I would touch on that to add "if you say something, make sure its accurate." People are really quick to reference other websites (like the safe plant lists) as the final word. There's tons of conflicting information out there, so I feel its important to always do your own homework. That is not necessarily directed at you, but anyone who might stumble across this down the road trying to determine if orchids are safe for their vivs.

Dawn, and any other cleaner used in the viv, should always be thoroughly rinsed. You're not intended to leave it behind (and its not designed for that, either). Any chemical cleanser in your home (and half the stuff we eat) will be shown to contain questionable compounds. There are plenty of "organic" options out there...but be sure to do your research on those, as those can also be toxic. I use a lot or organic controls for my plant collection, and every one of them that is "organic" and approved for organic farming, are still toxic with big ol' warning labels and PPE required.

 

[snitz427]

I have used orchids as well. Although I had a heck of a time getting them to bloom but they grew like crazy. I think I had them too far away from the lights for blooms.

Careful giving it straight... I am pretty sure this is why Beman got edema. Once I cut it out and stopped putting it directly on feeders only leaving it in the gutload his subsided.

Yea I use it pretty infrequently. The "wet method" with the BSFL really thins it out to where its not really visible, but you know (or hope) a tiny bit is there. I know they get micro doses in the wild, since they eat a lot of pollinators, so I am hoping that providing it via flower, instead of the jarred pollen, will be more natural. If anything, it may provide a food source for the bugs and a more natural gut load... but all of that would just be a perk if I can actually get them to bloom

Some of the orchids I have are super tiny. I dont think anything larger than the tiniest of fruit flies could actually reach the pollen or flowers. Orchids are kool.