Baby Veiled health concern

[mikegwreid]

Hi,

I have had my baby veiled for about 10 days now. Over the past 18 hours I have noticed a big change in her behavior.

Chameleon Info:

Your Chameleon - Veiled Chameleon, Female, 5-6 weeks, 10 days
Handling - Only when cleaning her terrarium, even then I try to only move her plant without handling her.
Feeding - Mostly 1/8" crickets, occasional meal works. Around 6 crickets per day, occasionally substituting a mealworm in for a couple. I put them in the enclosure in the morning, she doesn't typically eat until 7:00 pm when she east everything she can find. Crickets are given a mixture of pulp from my juicer and leafy greens. Pulp consists of celery, carrot, kale, gala apple.
Supplements - Exoterra brand cal and vitamins, reptisafe water treatment. I have been dusting crickets with calcium every couple of days, multi once a week.
Watering - I have been using a little dripper system that continuously drips about 1 drop per second during lit hours. I had been misting twice a day, but she would become very angry when I did it so I have cut back on it. I do see her drinking, she will go straight to the tube and either drink the drops from it or from the leaves that it lands on directly below.
Fecal Description - Her feces looks normal, the urea is 80% bright white with a small amount of orange at the end closest to the feces.
History - She is brand new, no obvious health problems.


Cage Info:

Cage Type - Cage is a repti-breeze small (16"x16"x20")
Lighting - Her light is a reptimed 2x5 1/2" fixture with a 50w daylight basking spot and a 5.0 ReptiGlo UVB.
Temperature - Cage floor sits at 74F, basking spot is 79F. Overnight temps are around 73-75F. Temp is measured by a digital thermometer. I will be testing it against my very accurate glass and mercury thermometer today.
Humidity - I had mainly been using the misting to keep it humid in the cage, which I had cut back on since it was making her upset.
Plants - Her habitat has a Schefflera arboricola, where she spends most of her time and a pothos that I have only seen her on once.
Placement - The cage is not in a high traffic area, no fans in the area either. She sits at the highest point in the room, top of the cage is about 6'6" off of the ground.
Location - Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Current Problem - Starting last night she didn't do her usual search of the cage for food. He left her tree that I haven't seen her off of and began walking all around the sides and roof of her screen, even after her lights went out. Watching her move around she was walking in circles quite a bit like she was confused. Today she seems to be extra restless all day, walking around much more than usual and at one point I watched her as she rubbed her head on a stem for about 20 seconds.

I have attached a picture of her. I had to hold her for it since she wouldn't come to a decent place for a photo in her enclosure.

Thank you!

Mike Reid

 

[chameleonfan101]

from your picture he seems dehydrated from looking at his eyes.

 

[carol5208]

Hi Mike and welcome to the forums.she should be eating atleast 15-20 crickets a day. You are not feeding her enough. What is that black on the front of her mouth? Why is she eating at 7pm-so late? does your calcium have d3? you need one with and one without. use the one without at every feeding, and the multi twice a montha and the d3 calcium twice monthly. None of the above should have anything to do with her behavior that I know of but they are things you need to change. I would up her basking temp a few degrees also.

 

[ataraxia]

Hi, welcome to the forums. Sounds like you may have over supplemented her. Should be easy enough to fix and with a few changes in your care she should make a good rebound.

My recommendation in bold.

Hi,

I have had my baby veiled for about 10 days now. Over the past 18 hours I have noticed a big change in her behavior.

Chameleon Info:

Your Chameleon - Veiled Chameleon, Female, 5-6 weeks, 10 days
Handling - Only when cleaning her terrarium, even then I try to only move her plant without handling her.
Feeding - Mostly 1/8" crickets, occasional meal works. Around 6 crickets per day, occasionally substituting a mealworm in for a couple. I put them in the enclosure in the morning, she doesn't typically eat until 7:00 pm when she east everything she can find. Crickets are given a mixture of pulp from my juicer and leafy greens. Pulp consists of celery, carrot, kale, gala apple.follow carols advice.
Supplements - Exoterra brand cal and vitamins, reptisafe water treatment. I have been dusting crickets with calcium every couple of days, multi once a week.Truely no need for the water treatment..save ya a few extra bones Its really important to be on a proper supplement schedule. Plain phos free calcium should be given every feeding, product like reptivite twice a month.
Watering - I have been using a little dripper system that continuously drips about 1 drop per second during lit hours. I had been misting twice a day, but she would become very angry when I did it so I have cut back on it. I do see her drinking, she will go straight to the tube and either drink the drops from it or from the leaves that it lands on directly below.Do not stop the mistings. Many young chameleons hate it. Dont spray her directly. Instead let the outside of the misting pattern fall on her. She needs misting for many health reason..the number one reason is for all around eye health.
Fecal Description - Her feces looks normal, the urea is 80% bright white with a small amount of orange at the end closest to the feces.
History - She is brand new, no obvious health problems.


Cage Info:

Cage Type - Cage is a repti-breeze small (16"x16"x20")
Lighting - Her light is a reptimed 2x5 1/2" fixture with a 50w daylight basking spot and a 5.0 ReptiGlo UVB. im not a fan of spot lights as the light pattern is focus into a tight small area. Floods or a normal house bulb would my choice.
Temperature - Cage floor sits at 74F, basking spot is 79F. Overnight temps are around 73-75F. Temp is measured by a digital thermometer. I will be testing it against my very accurate glass and mercury thermometer today. Personally i would bump your temps up a tad bit. Not very many here will like this suggestion but i keep my females like a male. high 80's to 90* temps.
Humidity - I had mainly been using the misting to keep it humid in the cage, which I had cut back on since it was making her upset.
Plants - Her habitat has a Schefflera arboricola, where she spends most of her time and a pothos that I have only seen her on once.
Placement - The cage is not in a high traffic area, no fans in the area either. She sits at the highest point in the room, top of the cage is about 6'6" off of the ground.
Location - Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Current Problem - Starting last night she didn't do her usual search of the cage for food. He left her tree that I haven't seen her off of and began walking all around the sides and roof of her screen, even after her lights went out. Watching her move around she was walking in circles quite a bit like she was confused. Today she seems to be extra restless all day, walking around much more than usual and at one point I watched her as she rubbed her head on a stem for about 20 seconds.

I have attached a picture of her. I had to hold her for it since she wouldn't come to a decent place for a photo in her enclosure.

Thank you!

Mike Reid

 

[chameleonfan101]

from your picture he seems dehydrated from looking at his eyes.

these babies are exactly 6 weeks and 2 days old thats the reason why i though he was dehydrated(yes it can also be other things such as over supplementation) i would have your basking spot to 84. welcome to the forums!

 

[mikegwreid]

chameleonfan101
That was my first thought as well. I am going to keep a good eye on her and see if I can figure out how to get her drinking more. I am also going to go back to my more regular misting, trying not to get her and make her upset.

Thanks for the other baby veiled pics, I was looking around for others to compare her to but had been unsuccessful up until now.

carol5208
I'm not totally sure why she is waiting so late to eat, the crickets are in the enclosure all day, she just seems to wait until that time. The calcium does have d3, I will pick one up without tomorrow morning. I just wiped the black bit off of her mouth, looked like a bit of black dead leaf.

ataraxia
I will adjust her supplements and get the temp a bit higher as well as switching up the fixture.

Thanks everyone!

 

[Elizadolots]

Hi, what a cute little baby.

You might want to consider removing the crickets at 3pm or so. That might inspire her to eat earlier. It's best if they have at least 4 hours of basking time to digest.

Normally I'd suggest a greater temperature gradient. 79 at the top going down to 65-69 at the bottom, overnight temps in the 60-65 range. Is there a reason it's being kept so constant?

I think 84 is a little too warm for a baby this small. Especially as there is not a good temperature gradient.

By the way, how are you measuring the temperatures?

 

[fluxlizard]

These are some of my last batch of babies taken at 6-7 weeks old.

Most of mine are young adults by 16-20 weeks. Not all grow this quickly in my care- some individuals may take twice that long to reach these sizes.

I use warm basking spots from day 1 though (upper 90s at least, but with a true thermal gradient so anything on down to 70ish is possible for them to use and find at any time during the day).

IMO raising your basking temperature to at least what ataraxia is recommending might do a world of good for your lizard's appetite.

It is critical that the lizard be able to move in and out of the heat and escape it when it wants to though. I agree very much with that- make sure you don't cook your lizard. But if you have a true thermal gradient going on, babies thermoregulate just as readily as adults and there shouldn't be any problems.

Plenty of drinking water is very important for babies because they can dehydrate fast and do not eat if they are thirsty.
If you are uncomfortable misting a lot, you should supplement the misting with a drip.

Personally, I don't feel the time of day that your lizard eats is a really big deal. In the wild, they eat any time they get the chance. Babies the size of yours always have food available in my care and can eat any time during the day. Digestion is slowed down at night, it is true, but what they ate is still going to be used the next day when they warm back up. Chameleons are able to digest at pretty low body temperatures anyway, as your very low basking temperature demonstrates.

Whatever you decide, good luck.

 

[Elizadolots]

fluxlizard, if the OP cannot create a good temperature gradient, would you still recommend increasing the basking temp (meaning, if the overall temperature is going to go up as well)?

 

[fluxlizard]

maybe.

79 is pretty low IMO.

If this were my chameleon and I were trouble-shooting a lack of appetite, certainly the fact that the warmest it can get is 79 would be at the top of the list of things to fix.

A baby veiled isn't going to heat stress with ambient temps even in the lower 80s. I've got them outside in the summer time from day 1 when day temps might be in the upper 90s- shade is going to still be lower 80s when the misters aren't on.

But I don't see why heating a spot warmer in a screen cage would prevent keeping ambient at 74 anyway (which is probably room temperature from the sounds of it- notice overnight temperature is also about 74 when lights are out. This being the case I don't think it would raise the entire screen terrarium temperature out of the 70s to provide a warmer hot spot. Most of the heat is going to be sucked right away as cool air is pulled in freely below the hot spot. Significant warmth should only occur below the light in these conditions).

Her light fixture is only 5 1/2". That isn't going to cover the top. It should be placed near one corner. I think that size fixture can only handle a 60 watt bulb anyway.

One thing that does bother me a little about all this is the accuracy of the temperature reading on the thermometer. A 50 watt spot should provide warmer temp than 79, unless the branches don't go all the way to the top.

I'm in agreement with the opinion that spot lights generally suck for heating lizards. They provide a hot/cold situation. A gradual gradient in temperatures is what is preferred and understood by the lizards rather than a hot spot and cold cage which can lead to burns and/or a frustrated lizard.

But I do believe your caution about cooking a baby is warranted, especially for someone without much experience. So to the OP, let me clarify -

I do believe you should provide a warmer basking area.

I do believe a normal incandescent bulb is the way to go for heat rather than a "spot" light type light.

I think aiming for the mid 80s at the warmest spot is a safe way to go since you do not have a lot of experience under your belt.

I do not believe ambient temperature will be a problem if that is the temperature you aim for- even if you manage somehow to warm the very coolest spot in the terrarium up to 83 to get your hottest spot at 85, I do not believe your baby chameleon will have a problem with that.

I do not believe that is what you should try to do, in spite of what I just wrote. I am a strong believer in providing thermal gradient and letting lizards do what lizards do to remain healthy- namely choose their own temperature.

My bet is that if the OP substitutes a normal 60 watt incandescent for her heat spot, and fills her terrarium with twiggy branches, she will be able to give her lizard a lovely thermal gradient ranging from 85 down to 74 without a problem.

 

[Elizadolots]

My bet is that if the OP substitutes a normal 60 watt incandescent for her heat spot, and fills her terrarium with twiggy branches, she will be able to give her lizard a lovely thermal gradient ranging from 85 down to 74 without a problem.

I hope so...I really question the ambient room temperature being 74...I know that's what it sounds like, but geeze....she's in Canada! Isn't that running the heat an awful lot? I live in San Diego and the bottom of my cages are 74 degrees less than half the year. Right now, they are down in the high 60s because it's cold and our heater only comes on when the temperature gets below 65. I just have to think there's some effort being made to keep the temps warm because, as we know, some stores will tell you that all reptiles like it hot.

I will say that 80 to 83 is what I typically see recommended for babies. Maybe that's because most baby enclosures are not designed to have a good temperature gradient. They are fairly shallow, fairly small bins. To get a gradient, you need significant space between "lights" and "not lights"....most of the baby bins I've seen haven't had that.

By the way, thank you for taking the time to help me increase my knowledge. I know it's designed to help the OP as well, but it was my question you answered and I appreciate that.

 

[mcleodschams]

72-74 is my room temp here in london too

 

[kinyonga]

How's the chameleon now??

 

[mikegwreid]

When I checked on her the night before last she was still sleeping while hanging from the top of her cage for some reason. I had to leave for work at 5:00am yesterday. I set her up with crickets and a drip that was good all day. When I got home last night her lights were off and she was happily sleeping on her plant with her tail curled nicely.

About an hour after she work this morning I let her daily crickets go and she immediately went and ate three, then settled in her basking spot and has been there since.

She seems to be back to normal, thanks for the help and suggestions!

 

[kinyonga]

Good to hear that she is back to normal!

 

[djfishygillz]

I have my baby veileds at about 80 degrees ambient room temperature and their basking spot at about 90 and they have tripled in wait in a month. If anything I recommend upping the temperatures and your veileds appetite will increase. Veileds like it a good amount hotter than panthers, its like desert compared to jungle. Up the temperatures and I am sure the appetite will increase glad to here the cham is better now though