Baby Parsons

[lbesok]

These babies were at the Orlando Fire show this past weekend. They were VERY small and VERY cute. The orange one that is in the add fascinated me, and I just wanted to sit at the booth for hours and look at it (ok and try to hold it too lol).
Out of the three that were on display at the show, they did not by any means look like top notch CB specimen, but on the other hand were not super unhealthy either. The eyes looked a little watery, and some of them were rubbing. Also if you look at the first photograph posted on Kingsnake you will see the tale tale sines of a skin fungus taking over that little one's tail

 

[Chameleon Company]

Unless this seller can produce breeding records and CITES paperwork proving that these babies are descendents of legally obtained specimens, then one should not purchase them. It's that simple.

True, but in explanation, there's a problem with "proof". All these parsons are imported with valid CITES paperwork. Depending on the path taken here, all paperwork after Indonesia is "legal". It is in Indonesia that illegal animals make the jump to "legal". A breeder's statement from Indonesia isn't worth the ink its written with, and unfortunately, won't "prove" anything. All transactions on U.S. soil, although unethical in the eyes of many of us, will be "legal" though. And as we see from posts here by others who wish they had one, ownership seems to be all that matters, even though the money spent to purchase one would be funding the continued illegal trafficking in this species. And if you spend $2K on one of these, and 3-4 months from now a filarial worm or two shows up under the skin, as they are present in many Indo imports, then I can guarantee you one thing. There are more worms where those came from. Enjoy !

 

[Kent67]

And if you spend $2K on one of these, and 3-4 months from now a filarial worm or two shows up under the skin, as they are present in many Indo imports, then I can guarantee you one thing. There are more worms where those came from. Enjoy !

I'd guarantee something else also. When you find those worms, there's not going to be a parsonii breeder to guarantee those animals are captive bred and born (cbb), nor help you out with any guidance or financial assistance in treating them.

Great posts everyone. I've especially enjoyed your additional insight, Jim.

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

does anyone have anyone real evidence of preservation efforts that have actually succeeded in making a difference in the habitat loss of the lands that have anything to do with P. parsonii???

 

[dodolah]

True, but in explanation, there's a problem with "proof". All these parsons are imported with valid CITES paperwork. Depending on the path taken here, all paperwork after Indonesia is "legal". It is in Indonesia that illegal animals make the jump to "legal". A breeder's statement from Indonesia isn't worth the ink its written with, and unfortunately, won't "prove" anything. All transactions on U.S. soil, although unethical in the eyes of many of us, will be "legal" though. And as we see from posts here by others who wish they had one, ownership seems to be all that matters, even though the money spent to purchase one would be funding the continued illegal trafficking in this species. And if you spend $2K on one of these, and 3-4 months from now a filarial worm or two shows up under the skin, as they are present in many Indo imports, then I can guarantee you one thing. There are more worms where those came from. Enjoy !

This is very true. As someone who was born in Indonesia, I am enraged with the practice done in the country. You can literally get any kind of animals (let alone a parson) if you know some connections.
Those "legal" paper from the officials are often obtained thru "illegal" way, if you know what i mean.
With enough money and connections, you can purchase ridiculous animals such as black panther, bear, and paradise bird as pets. (and trust me, Parson chameleons are there).

I remember when I was a kid, I went to an "animal" market nearby my house to purchase chicken feed and approached by one of the vendor there if i want an orang utan.

This type of markets is often seized by the police; but, the police themselves often look the other way as long as the vendors collect some money and give the money to them.

Here is the market:

and here's the article to support my points:
http://indonesia.profauna.org/kampanye-profauna2.html

I try to give you guys the english link. But, somehow the link is broken.
Here's the liberal translation of the article (pardon for the grammar, I tried my best translating Indonesian language in a short amount of time):

An Open Black Market

Bird Market "Pramuka" is one of the biggest market in Indonesia. This market, which located in Pramuka street East Jakarta, is one of the famous site among the rare animal collectors. There are about close to 300 booth on all 3 floors ironically located just about half a mile from "kantor Balai Konservasi Sumber Daya Alam (BKSDA) DKI Jakarta" -Natural Source and Wild Life Conservatory office-. BKSDA is a government organization responsible for wild life circulation in the area.

In "Pasar Burung Pramuka," rare species such as Slow Loris (Nycticebus coucang), Javan Lutung (Trachypithecus auratus), Sumatran Surili (Presbytis melalophos), Greater Sulfur Cockatoo (Cacatua galerita), siamang (Hylobates syndactylus), Paradise Bird, Tarsius, orangutan (Pongo pygmaeus), and Bali Starling (Leucopsar rotschildi). In Juli 2005, ProFauna noted that more than 160 species sold at "pasar burung" with each species amount to ten thousands animals. 30% of the animals sold are protected under wild life constitutions.

Sightings of rare wild life species are common in this market. The complexities of the illegal transactions in this market is astounding. Several mission to confiscate the animals done by police and BKSDA are always end up in failure due to an information leak from the inside. In July 29, 2003, hundreds of the market vendor brutally attack 3 animal activist from Profauna that helped the police to confiscate tens of illegally obtained wild life from Sumatra.
In this area, the law is not exist.

Starting the year 2004, the vendor is no longer openly show the animals in front of their store. Instead, the animals are now located in several private houses at "Pembina" street. Any interested animal collectors can simply ask for the animals that they are looking for, and the vendors will take the buyers to their house for purchase.

Pasar Burung Pramuka is a barometer for illegal transactions of protected animals in Indonesia. A swift and harsh action from the government is needed to eliminate this practice. Hopefully, with this actions people will start to respect the law that protect wild lives in Indonesia. A serious commitment from the Indonesian government to fight the illegal wild life black market should begin in "Pasar Burung Pramuka."

 

[lbesok]

A number of people have hatched C. parsonii parsonii and C. parsonii cristiferum in North America. Ken Kalisch was the first to hatch both subspecies, as is WELL documented in the many articles he wrote documenting all of it, including pictures and incubation regimen.

Is Ken still working with parsons today???

 

[Chameleon Company]

It is my belief that he is not, and that he has not for years. But my last update is years old. I know of a few others who tried and ended up losing a small fortune. Others may be hopeful of raising up their current critters to produce a successful clutch, but as mentioned earlier, success is very difficult with these animals.

Unfortunately, when looking at the economics of this, there is a strong financial component to all of this that is that is out-of-whack in a normal competitive supply-and-demand model, and is a huge disincentive for legal production. You are competing against other "producers" who have production costs that will always be 90% lower than yours. They can do it with 90% less time, 90% less assets tied up, and get new breeding stock already gravid for 90% less than you pay for a juvenile! They can lower their prices by half and still make a killing. And then lower them again. I know three legitimate breeders stateside who, as they ran into difficulties (expense) in continuing to pursue legitimate parsonii breeding in the last 6 years, gave it up exactly for those reasons.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

And as we see from posts here by others who wish they had one, ownership seems to be all that matters, even though the money spent to purchase one would be funding the continued illegal trafficking in this species. And if you spend $2K on one of these, and 3-4 months from now a filarial worm or two shows up under the skin, as they are present in many Indo imports, then I can guarantee you one thing. There are more worms where those came from. Enjoy !

Easy, now. I see several people on this forum, including myself, expressing temptation, fascination, even coveting one, but all (including me) seem to be backing away due to the complex underlying issues, questionable legalities, etc. Let's be fair.

That is why these threads are important when some Parson's show up on Kingsnake. Folks (like me) need this education. This is a recurring thread. But that's good, too, because it can be confusing when the unititiated see a new posting on Kingsnake advertising "legal" Parsonii. Of course, I didn't see the ad on Kingsnake until I read the beginning of this thread.

 

[luckykarma]

One of the members of South Bay Chameleon Club here in L.A. is trying to breed Parsons. Maybe he'll chime in. IIRC his first clutch didn't make it and he's onto his 2nd.

 

[Chameleon Company]

but all (including me) seem to be backing away due to the complex underlying issues, questionable legalities, etc. Let's be fair.

Hey, we always try to be fair !

We can call everything here "if the shoe fits", but we all would agree that there is a demand for these animals, with a limited enough supply, to keep the profit margin huge for the exporter in Indonesia. By the same token, more and more panther chameleons come through this same pipeline. Many of those are actually CBB in Indo, but again, costs are low because they also replenish their stock with smuggled animals. Just IMMHO, educated that it is, but my estimate is that 90% of all Indo panthers in the U.S. are sold as CBB here and misrepresented as to bloodlines. They sell for 2-3 times as much that way, often imported at a cost of $90-100, then getting a newfound "sire" and flipped for $300-400, where if they were ID'd as Indo origins, they wouldn't get half that. Because of their disorganized and reckless care for the animals in Indo, many Locale hybrids are also being produced there and shipped here, and yet still offered as pedigree here. Many buyers of these animals are often seeing a filarial worm show up after 1-2 months, as apparently Indo has mosquito species capable of transmitting them between animals, which I guess makes it a "two for one"

 

[Eric Adrignola]

I am willing to bet that a lot of people (...I'd say all the buyers of these things) are simply justifying their purchase. These individual animals wil die in inexperienced hands. In the hands of experienced keepers, they will have a good shot at living, and ultimatly, breeding. That outcome may help establish parsonii in captive breeding programs in the future. The smugglers will continue doing what they're doing, as expenses are low. They probably figure they might as well make some good come out of it.

I'm not justifing it, just playing the "buyer's advocate".

I just had a conversation with one of my coworkers about those worms. We had an issue come up at a sushi restaurant this week - they were not obtaining properly prepared sushi fish (frozen below zero for several hours, to kill parasites). A customer cut into a piece of fluke (which was NOT supposed to be on the menu - we monitor the types of fish they serve raw), and a lovely little wormy crawled out...

I'll stick to tuna...

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

I'm agreeing with eric, because of ( the short sidedness) of cites very effectively banning exportation, but not effectively protecting habitat, these animals are the closest thing to a " breeding stock " we can get, and should be purchased when available by experienced keepers. the harm has already been done, and that is a way to possibly have good come out of it all.

and we as a hobby have come a long way from when we were raping the parsons. which is supposedly why ardi fought so hard to have them banned in the first place, massive loss numbers and poor rate of success in breeding.

With no effective habitat protection, and those looking to start farms getting the run around time is running out.

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

Good point Eric. I mean everything that is illegal still occurs somewhere somehow. There will always be people with the money to buy these animals and always somehow that the importers will get in. I feel that the demand is much higher than supply so I would rather see the animals in keepers with experience. I mean it is like the Veileds at the big pet stores, they are going to keep getting them in because there are too many customers that have the $50 to spend on a pet for their kids, so why try to boycott the big pet store? If your an experienced keeper who has the time and dedication to keep these animals successfully then why let the next joe who just has the money and big eyes.

Also, are filarial worms present in Madagascar as well? No matter what an animal is labeled (CBB, CB, Indo) if a customer spends that much money on a chameleon, I have a feeling they are going to the vet first chance they get. As far as panthers imported from Indo, their climate is much closer to the locales of Madagascar where panthers are found which would lend me to believe that they could have successful breeding programs there. That is my opinion.

Oh, and Luckykarma...is the person you know that is working with Parsonii the same guy that had his first clutch in February? I haven't heard an update on that clutch and was just wondering.

-chris

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Just a note: I'm not justifying the purchase of these animals with the above reasoning, I'm stating what I believe to be the reasons that others justify their actions. I know far too little about the details of these happenings to have a valid opinion or argument for either cause!

Yes, good will be done by obtaining animals.

Yes, bad is done by continuing the illegal trade of animals.

The facts behind the operation (are they breeding them there? Are they merely smuggling gravid females? Are they breeding them, but with smuggled stock?) are not clear, so it's not possible for me to form an opinion.

When facts are muddy, it makes a decision easier for those interested in purchasing one. You can't be sure about anything other than the fact that you have a chance at breeding parsonii.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Chris, in answer, etc ..

I mean it is like the Veileds at the big pet stores, they are going to keep getting them in because there are too many customers that have the $50 to spend on a pet for their kids, so why try to boycott the big pet store?

To each his own motivations and justifications, but the veileds are legal, and to purchase one is not to support their demise in the wild and continue to fund illegal activities.

Also, are filarial worms present in Madagascar as well? No matter what an animal is labeled (CBB, CB, Indo) if a customer spends that much money on a chameleon, I have a feeling they are going to the vet first chance they get.

Yes, they are present. The vet can do essentially nothing about it though. Filarials do not exist in the gut, but rather between skin layers, internal and external. You can incise one out when at the surface, leaving a small scar and stressing the animal, but there are more within just waiting. Using drugs to kill the filarials, as they are in the tissues, has proven to create more problems than it solves. These drugs are very hard on the chameleons, and the dead worms can cause secondary issues.

As far as panthers imported from Indo, their climate is much closer to the locales of Madagascar where panthers are found which would lend me to believe that they could have successful breeding programs there.

They have "breeding programs", but because the money is easy and accountability non-existent, they hybridize, as mentioned. Guess its all in what you call "successful", and in theory they "could be successful". But the current net result of most panthers from Indo is that they are sold here misrepresented in more ways than one, and are each little accidents waiting to happen. I do not see anything changing that.

 

[luckykarma]

Chris. I'm not sure. I'm going to the meeting next week. If he doesn't chime in or Dave Weldon doesn't I'll ask.

This is a fascinating discussion. I didn't know there was such a Indo business going on until I got a Panther with questionable lineage originally bought as a breeder but now may or may not be a cross.

Are most breeders bringing CBB CB in from Indo unless they have their own stock? I wish more people could be educated here so when they go to places like Kingsnake they know what they're getting into.

 

[Chameleon Company]

When facts are muddy, it makes a decision easier for those interested in purchasing one. You can't be sure about anything other than the fact that you have a chance at breeding parsonii.

Have to disagree again. The fact that parsonii could last be exported legally from Madagascar about 13 years ago is fact. That Indo parsonii do not have legal origins is up at about 99.99% certainty. Having a "fact that you have a chance to breed parsonii" is borderline oxymoron.

Taking some liberies here, but am I that far off in saying that it seems that if one feels thay can take good care of a parsonii, and maybe successfully breed it where others have not, that:

1) Better that I buy it than someone who isn't as smart as me; and

2) Let's disregard that purchasing them will only increase the demand, cause that numb-nuts who doesn't know as much as me will still want one; and

3) Have to get them while the "gettin is good". There's a "chance" that I am really saving the species by contributing to their continued illegal trade and taking from the wild.

Of course, we haven't "proved" they are illegal, right ?

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Taking some liberies here, but am I that far off in saying that it seems that if one feels thay can take good care of a parsonii, and maybe successfully breed it where others have not, that:

1) Better that I buy it than someone who isn't as smart as me; and

2) Let's disregard that purchasing them will only increase the demand, cause that numb-nuts who doesn't know as much as me will still want one; and

3) Have to get them while the "gettin is good". There's a "chance" that I am really saving the species by contributing to their continued illegal trade and taking from the wild.

Of course, we haven't "proved" they are illegal, right ?
>>>>>


That's pretty much my point. People will look at the situation in a way that justifies their actions.

Point one, for example. I had been told many times that melleri shold be banned, as the species was impossible to keep in captivity - because the most experienced breeders and keepers failed. Hence, my C.B.B. melleri is named Ardi - out of Irony, not in honor of!

Many people have a very high opinion of themselves. Often, to the point of having an unreasonable expectation of their own abilities. Having been keeping chameleons for 15 years, I've seen an awful lot of failed breeding projects - firsthand and secondhand. It's not uncommon to see these parsonii up for sale after a few years. People start to realize what they got themselves into. You see it with all chameleons, and animals in general.

Point two goes hand in hand with point one - they think that the good they accomplish will outweigh the bad, after all, the "evil" is done. The illegal and immoral act of smuggling was done before, and the babies themselves were not smuggled... so justification is easier than if the individuals were themselves smuggled.

Point three is also covered under the first - people think they are not only smarter than other people, but that their accomplishments are important. So, but trying to breed parsonii, they can help the species as a whole.

Again, I'm not siding with any side in this issue. Most people say they are well-meaning, but in reality, they just want to get a freaking parson's chameleon. They'll justify it somehow. Some people will do nothing more than fund the shady operations in question, others will probably contribute to the understanding of the species.

Legal or not, the export/import of live wild animals is not the most wonderful trade in existance. Many of us are in it for pure fun, others for profit, some, like me, for both. We all hope we can do some "good" for the animals, and species in general. More often than not, the entire process is good for us, bad for them. But not always.

As for the parsonii situation, I think the best way to justify a purchase is to look not at the species level, but at the individual level. You're saving that one animal from an unsure fate, an dyou're going to make an effort to breed it. There's some good there.

If that outweighs the harm done by patronizing the illegal animal-exporting wing of Al Queada, I'd be surprised. You'd have to hatch out a LOT of lizards.

(that's more or less a joke, I still have not formed an opinion on the good/bad of this situation)

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

the people that were raping parsons then are raping something else now. banning parsons isnt even a band aid on a symptom of the real problem.

Was I around when ardi pushed for the ban, no.
Am I glad they were banned, yes.
Do I beleive ardi had the right reasons to push for the ban, not at all.

if we look at these parsons on a case by case basis, this becomes a question of the lesser of two evils

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

LuckyKarma, I don't think that there is that much Indo importing, but I do know there is a little. The fact of the matter is there a lot that goes one behind the scenes in the reptile industry, from breeders bringing in halfway legal animals selling them as their own to in-line breeding their own. The hard part is finding the good breeders who actual cares about the animals and wants you to know everything you can about your animal. IMHO their are tons of mix locale animals being sold as a pure locale because all it takes is one person down the line to either lie, forget, or just mislabel a locale to mess up the purity of an entire bloodline. I mean, look at all the wild caughts that come in, look at books of wild panthers, and now look at some of the offspring out there for sale...it just makes you think.

Also Jim, we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I think there are too many "numb nuts" out their with money who want something that is endangered. Their will always be a demand for endangered species. If some come over with the muddy paperwork then they will be sold. I am just glad there is a high price tag so that not every "numb nut" can afford them.

-chris