Baby Not Doing Well

[jajeanpierre]

a vet check up should be the vest I belive

I guess you didn't understand exactly how much effort I was prepared to do to keep this baby alive. I've already discussed the baby with the vet and we decided not to treat it and let nature take it's course. I was hoping for some insight from breeders as to their experiences with clutches and whether or not this might be related to nutrition, possibly incubating temperatures, age of parents and I don't know what else that could produce a stunted baby and 30% mortality rate at hatch or right before hatch.

Just because you can treat does not necessarily mean you should.

 

[ponders]

Hi Janet,

He does look disproportionate, with a big head and a smaller body. But he doesn't look skinny by any means. If you aren't the culling type, I would just let him go and see how he does. I've had some runts that turned out fine. I try to keep mine on the cooler side and grow them slowly anyway. He may surprise you, or he could have congenital defects and only live a short time, but be cute while he is here.

 

[Decadancin]

Just because you can treat does not necessarily mean you should.

This is true, even though the instinct is that we always should! We just don't have hindsight to tell us if we could be prolonging the inevitable or causing discomfort or any number of uncertain outcomes. I wish I knew the right answer here .

 

[jajeanpierre]

Hi Janet,

He does look disproportionate, with a big head and a smaller body. But he doesn't look skinny by any means. If you aren't the culling type, I would just let him go and see how he does. I've had some runts that turned out fine. I try to keep mine on the cooler side and grow them slowly anyway. He may surprise you, or he could have congenital defects and only live a short time, but be cute while he is here.

Thanks Tylene. I almost did cull him/her, but decided to let nature decide. He is eating but he is so much smaller than the siblings. His stool is getting a bit bigger, so I think he is eating more. I had some really small crickets delivered and I'll see if he will eat them in a day or so after I've fed them good food for a few days. The other babies have started on crickets and they really seem to have taken off as soon as I added crickets to their diet. Don't know if it is the crickets or just their time to start growing.

I put him in the cage with rest of the clutch to get some pictures of him for size and maturity reference. It is very sad to see in a cute sort of way. He has all the characteristics that trigger mothering/protective instincts in us mammals--a big head and big eyes. I'll do my best and see how it goes. He doesn't seem ill from disease.

Tylene, what did you think of my 30% mortality rate (3 babies dying at or before hatch out of 10 to develop to full term babies)? Am I doing something wrong?

How old are quads when you can sex them? I had a heck of a time sexing the graciliors and I was sending pictures to two other experienced quad breeders and they were having trouble, too.

Here's pictures of Runty. He was all excited to be climbing around in a big cage while I took the pictures.

 

[jajeanpierre]

This is true, even though the instinct is that we always should! We just don't have hindsight to tell us if we could be prolonging the inevitable or causing discomfort or any number of uncertain outcomes. I wish I knew the right answer here .

He is not suffering, and he's behaving pretty normally except for the occasional open-mouthed breathing. I suspect his lung space is limited for some reason. He has gained weight, but not a lot.

 

[ponders]

Maybe a bigger cage might encourage more activity and increase his appetite. He may not make it to adulthood, but worth the effort to see how he does.

On your mortality rate, I think your female was very small and young and that probably contributed to the small clutch size. I never had a 100% hatch rate on any of Fynn's eight clutches. I think there is data on my blog about survival rates. The clutches got bigger as she matured, I bred her the first time at about 8 months/60g. Her first clutch, only 2 survived, but that was me incubating in the closet, then having a heat wave and finally getting an incubator. So the temps were all over the place. Once the incubator at 68 degrees was used, hatch rates were better.

I did pretty well sexing babies right after they hatched, but graciliors are harder because the back crest isn't as well defined. On the quad quads, I could usually tell by looking down the back. The females were smooth like a parson, the males had a dot dash dot dash pattern down the spine._._._ except the dot was between the dashes, if that makes sense. I had a huge percent of males vs females.

Hope that helps!

 

[jajeanpierre]

Maybe a bigger cage might encourage more activity and increase his appetite. He may not make it to adulthood, but worth the effort to see how he does.

On your mortality rate, I think your female was very small and young and that probably contributed to the small clutch size. I never had a 100% hatch rate on any of Fynn's eight clutches. I think there is data on my blog about survival rates. The clutches got bigger as she matured, I bred her the first time at about 8 months/60g. Her first clutch, only 2 survived, but that was me incubating in the closet, then having a heat wave and finally getting an incubator. So the temps were all over the place. Once the incubator at 68 degrees was used, hatch rates were better.

I did pretty well sexing babies right after they hatched, but graciliors are harder because the back crest isn't as well defined. On the quad quads, I could usually tell by looking down the back. The females were smooth like a parson, the males had a dot dash dot dash pattern down the spine._._._ except the dot was between the dashes, if that makes sense. I had a huge percent of males vs females.

Hope that helps!

Thanks. I'm getting some new caging that is bigger. He's in a nursery cage right now. He's so pathetic, he' quite adorable.

I think I was spoiled by the gracilior clutch--14 eggs laid, 2 looked infertile right when laid and went moldy, 12 hatched and all are still doing well almost 5 months later. Another breeder said I shouldn't take my good fortune for granted because breeding doesn't always go so well. I know what you mean by the smooth backs or the scalloping. Have you ever had them switch from what you were sure they were--a smooth backed one end up being a male or the other way around?

 

[Lathis]

I'm not helpful for this, but Runty is seriously the most darling little guy I have seen in awhile. I really hope he makes it and is healthy.

 

[Decadancin]

what did you think of my 30% mortality rate (3 babies dying at or before hatch out of 10 to develop to full term babies)? Am I doing something wrong?

I don't think you can tell too much from one clutch unless you had perfect control conditions. Too many variables to question to lead to any real conclusions. JMO.

 

[ponders]

Thanks. I'm getting some new caging that is bigger. He's in a nursery cage right now. He's so pathetic, he' quite adorable.

I think I was spoiled by the gracilior clutch--14 eggs laid, 2 looked infertile right when laid and went moldy, 12 hatched and all are still doing well almost 5 months later. Another breeder said I shouldn't take my good fortune for granted because breeding doesn't always go so well. I know what you mean by the smooth backs or the scalloping. Have you ever had them switch from what you were sure they were--a smooth backed one end up being a male or the other way around?

Yes, breeding doesn't always go so well. Fynn laid 8 amazing clutches, but the daughters I kept are nothing like her. I lost two breeders full off eggs last year, and the female I do have left was bred but hasn't laid and rejects the male so, I am pretty much out of the game in one fell swoop. Fynn is retired and her last clutch only one egg is left viable in the incubator and it will probably be a male! But should know around Valentine's Day.

That's ok though, I have lots of family issues right now and babies are a lot of work.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Yes, breeding doesn't always go so well. Fynn laid 8 amazing clutches, but the daughters I kept are nothing like her. I lost two breeders full off eggs last year, and the female I do have left was bred but hasn't laid and rejects the male so, I am pretty much out of the game in one fell swoop. Fynn is retired and her last clutch only one egg is left viable in the incubator and it will probably be a male! But should know around Valentine's Day.

That's ok though, I have lots of family issues right now and babies are a lot of work.

I'm sorry for all your troubles. When you do want to get back into quads, I'm sure there will be a lot of of stock available, especially in your area.

Another breeder keeps reminding me to be thankful for my blessings. While encouraging me to enjoy any current success, he reminds me that it all might come to an end quite suddenly.

 

[MoyaChan]

Oh my goodness he's so adorable!! I'm really sorry that I'm no help here but I really wish for him/her to make it, it'd be a cute little miracle...

 

[jajeanpierre]

Oh my goodness he's so adorable!! I'm really sorry that I'm no help here but I really wish for him/her to make it, it'd be a cute little miracle...

So do I. I'm a sucker for the underdog just like everyone else.

 

[jpowell86]

So do I. I'm a sucker for the underdog just like everyone else.

How's Runty doing?

 

[jajeanpierre]

Runty is doing really well! His (probably a her ) open-mouth breathing is almost completely stopped. Tomorrow I'm going to weigh and take pictures of the whole clutch and will post pictures of him here. He doesn't look as stunted as he did, but getting a weight will tell me a lot. I think you were right about not having enough room for his lungs and he might just outgrow it.

 

[jpowell86]

Runty is doing really well! His (probably a her ) open-mouth breathing is almost completely stopped. Tomorrow I'm going to weigh and take pictures of the whole clutch and will post pictures of him here. He doesn't look as stunted as he did, but getting a weight will tell me a lot. I think you were right about not having enough room for his lungs and he might just outgrow it.

That's fantastic, although I too was hoping Runty was a male. I can't wait to see his progress. I am definitely rooting for Runty!!

 

[Lathis]

Go, go, Runty! Pack on those milligrams!

 

[chamdan]

How is runty doing?!

 

[jajeanpierre]

The Runty Report:

Today's weight is 1.4g--a 10% gain over the past 10 days, which I think is pretty darn good considering 10 days ago I was waiting for Runty to die or get sick enough I would have no choice but to cull.

The first picture is without a flash, second with a flash. He--it's a she, isn't it Tylene, no matter how much I wish otherwise?--looks a little longer in body now, not all head.

She was really funny. First I weighed her, carrying through the house to another room on a little skewer, so she wasn't very happy at all. Then I put her in a bare cage to take pictures and when I used my hand to get her up on the branch instead of hiding from my phone behind it, she actually puffed up and gaped at me. Spunky little Runty!