Baby Chameleon not eating really starting to worry.

[cyberlocc]

Hey guys So I got a baby Chameleon last week (Last Thursday, April 28th) And since then he/she hasn't eaten much.

I have mentioned it on a few other posts and was told not to worry but that was awhile ago. Since I have had it, he/she has eaten a few crickets maybe 3-4, and a few mealworms.

It cup fed the mealworms no problem, I gave it like 5 mealies overall since thursday the last being 2 on Monday. It will only eat very small mealworms of which I didn't have many. So then I tried more crickets, doesnt look like he ate any of them (maybe 1 or 2 that have slipped from the cup that I havent found dead yet.) Then I got dubias, yesterday of which he/she has eaten zero.

I caught him today sitting on the vine over the feeding cup looking at them and they were moving I left and came back later he ate none.

So some people say to not put food in for a few days? Should I do that with a baby? How long do I wait before I get worried? He/she has pooped a few times. The first was the second day and the urates were orange, the last poop I found yesterday (not sure when he pooped though, it was dried out on a leaf) was white so I fixed the dehydration. when I first got her and misted she sat there and opened her mouth wanting to be sprayed now she bolts the second she sees the bottle she runs and hides. I have a misting system on the way .

The cham is about 2-2.5 months old (from guess by the forums). Is it still just stressed with the new place? Or being stubborn. And when to get worried about the eating. As I am already freaking out and love this little guy or girl.

 

[Antihero383]

Pictures and filling out this form would be helpful.https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/how-to-ask-for-help.66/

 

[cyberlocc]

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Panther Chameleon, Unknown Sex, Unknown age. Last Thursday April, 28, 2016.
• Handling - Have twice for a couple of mins, just to get pictures for sex and age, and once to clean cage.
• Feeding - Not eating, I put the food in the mornings about 10, the few times he has eaten its been around 5. Crickets and some meal worms is all it has eaten. First crickets were not gutloaded (came with the Chameleon) Mealworms were gutloaded with Cornmeal, Wheatbran, Crushed Cheerios, and there bedding from the store mixed in.
• Supplements - Zoomed, calcium Ate on a few crickets, and 3 meal worms, Repetitive on 2 mealworms 1 time.
• Watering - Mister bottle, 3-5 mins, 4 to 5 times a day as needed to make sure leaves are wet most of the time. Only seen drinking the first few days. Dripper going all day.
• Fecal Description - First poop was brown and orange (no white) later poop, was white and yellow/orange, latest poop white and brown. Has not been tested for parasites yet, is CBB.
• History - Was dehydrated when I got it, seems to have turned around from that however. Was also closing one of its eyes frequently and keeping it shut at first. That has seemed to stop, still does it when it gets sprayed directly by mist however. Usually runs when it sees the sprayer .

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Cage is 16.5x16.5x34 Screen on 3 sides acrylic on the back.
• Lighting - 60 watt white bulb for heat, with a dome. Zoomed Reptiglo 5.0 for UVB. The UVB is about 6 inches for the basking spot and the Basking is about 10. Schedule is 8 to 8, though thought about reducing it as it seems to get ready for bed and start to fall asleep around 7ish. Usually on the same branch or general area.
• Temperature - 70s (69-73) bottom of the cage, Basking 80-85 (sometimes a tad lower than 80, high 70s). Lowest overnight has been 65, Digital thermometers.
• Humidity - Do not yet have a humidity gauge, However the leaves always have water on them. If they dry I spray them so I would guess fairly high.
• Plants - Yes, Ficus.
• Placement - Bedroom, No vents within 9 feet, top of the cage is 5.5/6 feet high, basking spot a few inches below (4-5")
• Location - Pinetop Arizona, Mountains in AZ about 7k ft, Foresty, lots of tall pines.

View media item 42429View media item 42426View media item 42424
Pictures are varied in age the last one was day 2, I sprayed him with the mist the first few days to help hydrate. He/She runs from mist now.

 

[JaxyGirl]

So your little guy is still really tiny. What size crickets are you feeding it. They shouldn't be any larger then the space between his eyes. If the feeder is too large some little chams will be intimidated and will not eat. He still looks like he needs to eat pinhead crickets, tiny super worms and fruit flies. Try putting a feeder on the screen inside his cage...the movement is much more stimulating then in a feeder cup. Little chams need movement to intice them to eat. Anything that flys usually will stimulate their appetite. Mealworms aren't the best feeders because they aren't that nutritious, hard to digest and could cause an intentional blockage.

 

[jajeanpierre]

You have a tiny baby. A very cute tiny baby! Get some fruit flies. Your feeders might be too big. Mist a lot--little babies dehydrate really easily and quickly. Get one of those pressurized misters that sprays a really find mist. I have a couple from PetCo that I love. Don't mist the baby directly, have the mist--try warm water--fall on the baby like a fog. They don't like to be hit by a mist.

 

[cyberlocc]

So your little guy is still really tiny. What size crickets are you feeding it. They shouldn't be any larger then the space between his eyes. If the feeder is too large some little chams will be intimidated and will not eat. He still looks like he needs to eat pinhead crickets, tiny super worms and fruit flies. Try putting a feeder on the screen inside his cage...the movement is much more stimulating then in a feeder cup. Little chams need movement to intice them to eat. Anything that flys usually will stimulate their appetite. Mealworms aren't the best feeders because they aren't that nutritious, hard to digest and could cause an intentional blockage.

They were tiny crickets, they ranged from 1/8 to 1/4 they were like a little over 1 week old (maybe 1.5 2 weeks).( just starting to turn brown). The meal worms were over 1/2 inch but just barely. The few crickets I have seen him eat were over 1/4 inch. I am now trying Dubia, that are smallest of the bunch (maybe little less more than 1/8 with some slightly larger, up to 1/4ish). None of the feeders I have put in were bigger then eye to eye.

As to the Free ranging, I did that at first and he wouldn't eat them. The only crickets he/she ate, I either held or were in the cup. All the meal worms were in the cup and 1 cricket I plopped right in front of her and she snapped it.

As for FF, do they eat FF at this age? LLL guaranteed he/she is over 2 months old they said they dont sell chams younger than that. I thought the FF stage ended at 1 month? I just ordered a bunch of Silk eggs, and baby supers, and some butter worms (they were on sale couldn't help it lol) so will try that when they get here.

You have a tiny baby. A very cute tiny baby! Get some fruit flies. Your feeders might be too big. Mist a lot--little babies dehydrate really easily and quickly. Get one of those pressurized misters that sprays a really find mist. I have a couple from PetCo that I love. Don't mist the baby directly, have the mist--try warm water--fall on the baby like a fog. They don't like to be hit by a mist.

I been misting quite a bit, I try to only let the leaves be dry for the first hour of the day and the last hour. The rest of the time I try to keep them dripping. I have a promist coming. I got it slightly used on CL, but it was in Phoenix and I have relatives there that are coming up here in the next few days (Tomorrow or Monday.) so then he will get super rained.

Like I said above, He has eaten the crickets that were actually larger then the feeders I have used since. I guess that could still be the problem IDK? would he eat bigger ones sometimes and then not later?

The other times I have mentioned it, people said he was probably just sick of Crickets. He will eat a meal worm before I even get it in the cup, However I know mealies are not good and do not want to feed them.

So will the small Silkies be good and small supers then? I am at the mercy of shipping still however. (2 days so Wednesday) and Live in a small town our "Pet Stores" Only sell large crickets and mealworms, 1 just started carrying dubia but only 1/2+ and I just bough 250 baby dubias. The closest Petco, is 5 hours away lol.

 

[jajeanpierre]

They were tiny crickets, they ranged from 1/8 to 1/4 they were like 1 week old.( just starting to turn brown). The meal worms were over 1/2 inch but just barely. The few crickets I have seen him eat were over 1/4 inch. I am now trying Dubia, that are smallest of the bunch (maybe little less more than 1/8 with some slightly larger, up to 1/4ish). None of the feeders I have put in were bigger then eye to eye.

As to the Free ranging, I did that at first and he wouldn't eat them. The only crickets he/she ate, I either held or were in the cup. All the meal worms were in the cup and 1 cricket I plopped right in front of her and she snapped it.

As for FF, do they eat FF at this age? LLL guaranteed he/she is over 2 months old they said they dont sell chams younger than that. I thought the FF stage ended at 1 month? I just ordered a bunch of Silk eggs, and baby supers, and some butter worms (they were on sale couldn't help it lol) so will try that when they get here.

I been misting quite a bit, I try to only let the leaves be dry for the first hour of the day and the last hour. The rest of the time I try to keep them dripping. I have a promist coming. I got it slightly used on CL, but it was in Phoenix and I have relatives there that are coming up here in the next few days (Tomorrow or Monday.) so then he will get super rained.

Like I said above, He has eaten the crickets that were actually larger then the feeders I have used since. I guess that could still be the problem IDK? would he eat bigger ones sometimes and then not later?

The other times I have mentioned it, people said he was probably just sick of Crickets. He will eat a meal worm before I even get it in the cup, However I know mealies are not good and do not want to feed them.

Your baby isn't sick of crickets. Something is wrong and stopping your baby from eating. You have to find out what is wrong.

Have you found any stool? Every day?

Here are the usual reasons a baby isn't eating:
It's full;
It's sick;
It has a tongue injury;
It's dehydrated or hasn't eaten for awhile and has low blood sugar (it's a vicious downward spiral);
The feeders are too big, too small, not interesting;
Most importantly, it is stressed.

Your job is to discover which it is and then fix it.

Yes, big chameleons will eat fruit flies. One of my breeding size gracilior femalesa loves fruit flies. Get some hydei fruit flies (because they are bigger), not the melanogaster.

Look to stress. Stress (and dehydration) are probably the biggest problems I see here on the forum. Both are also not recognized by a lot of people, which just compounds the problem. Stressed chameleons tend to die well before their time. The hormones that are released when an animal is under stress suppresses the immune system. That suppressed immune system can't fight the pathogens it normally handles just fine when its immune system is working well, allowing disease to get a foot hold.

Stress is from improper temperatures, hydration levels, nutrition, improper caging, handling, frightening situations and on and on and on. Stress is not a mood or emotion. It is a physiological state and a cascade of hormones that do not go away the moment the stressful event/situation stops.

Look at your husbandry and handling.

 

[cyberlocc]

Your baby isn't sick of crickets. Something is wrong and stopping your baby from eating. You have to find out what is wrong.

Have you found any stool? Every day?

Here are the usual reasons a baby isn't eating:
It's full;
It's sick;
It has a tongue injury;
It's dehydrated or hasn't eaten for awhile and has low blood sugar (it's a vicious downward spiral);
The feeders are too big, too small, not interesting; So right back to sick of Crickets that you started off saying that is not possible? He has eaten that size of cricket when he first got here. They are not too small, too big maybe, However again, he ate them before, and he is eating bigger mealworms.
Most importantly, it is stressed.

Your job is to discover which it is and then fix it.

Yes, big chameleons will eat fruit flies. One of my breeding size gracilior femalesa loves fruit flies. Get some hydei fruit flies (because they are bigger), not the melanogaster.

Look to stress. Stress (and dehydration) are probably the biggest problems I see here on the forum. Both are also not recognized by a lot of people, which just compounds the problem. Stressed chameleons tend to die well before their time. The hormones that are released when an animal is under stress suppresses the immune system. That suppressed immune system can't fight the pathogens it normally handles just fine when its immune system is working well, allowing disease to get a foot hold.

Stress is from improper temperatures, hydration levels, nutrition, improper caging, handling, frightening situations and on and on and on. Stress is not a mood or emotion. It is a physiological state and a cascade of hormones that do not go away the moment the stressful event/situation stops.

Look at your husbandry and handling.

Hey thanks for the reply.

I have found stool, 4 times over the last week. The first one was orange and brown very orange and sticky stuck to him as a matter of fact. The next time was orangeish/yellow, with a small dot of white. Then yellow and white 50/50, the most recent time today, it was white and brown not very much brown however.

"Its full" cant be the problem as it isnt eating much.
"Its sick," Not sure, take it to the Vet and if so when.
"It has a tongue injury;" I highly doubt that is the issue, as I have seen him throw his tongue out at mealworms the second I put them in the cup. He has no issues and runs straight for a mealworm, its everything else he refuses to eat (well crickets and now dubia).
I should also clarify this some more. When I put food in cup he will look at it. At around 5, he will go back to the cup and look at the insects inside for awhile then leave. If there is a mealworm however, he will snap it up. He will not do this with the crickets or the Dubias however. I will try the smallest dubia I got (I sorted them earlier and got the smallest I could and moved them to another tank) I will also try one of those little cleaner Beatles as they are smaller then some of the dubias and all the crickets he ate.
"Most importantly, it is stressed." May very well be, However there is no reason for it. Nothing I can do differently (until the mister gets here)

The only time his cage is opened, is to feed and mist. He obviously doesn't like me misting and trys to hide away when I do it. He has been removed from the cage twice and only for a few mins.

so "Stress is from"
"improper temperatures" I check his temps every time I mist and adjust the light as necessary to keep it at around 80 degrees. It has not been over 85 (I have a stat to ensure that if it goes over 85 it shuts off) So this is not the issue.

"hydration levels" Well this one, As I stated, a couple of times. He was dehydrated when I got him Extremely!, I sprayed him and he ran to the mist and opened his mouth drinking the water as I sprayed it. (more on that in the bottom).
He pooped solid orange and brown later as I stated earlier.

"nutrition" Could be, he isnt eating? Kind of a cacth 22. What can really be done about that? Force feed him?

"improper caging" Well, he has plants to hide in (and he does, a 27 icnh tall ficus that fills most of the cage, and a small vine plant to fill above it.) He does not have a place to hide while he basks, I will figure something out for that. He does have the curtain I can put over the door giving him 100% Privacy, that I can do in the meantime. He has a ton of branches going from top to bottom, and the ladder in the avatar at the top, (that he seems to really like, he hangs there alot). His cage is slightly oversize for him/her could that be an issue?

"frightening situations" He gets scared/hides when I come to mist the cage. Again he needs water he has to be misted, Kind of a catch 22. I can not not mist him.

I feel I should clarify this, I do not "Mist Him" I have a few times, He doesn't like that. But I have a few times, misted him with luke warm water. The first time he ran to it and drank it. Since then I have done it 2-3 times with warm water. As that is a method parroted hundreds of times here and else where. They say to give a shower to an adult and mist a baby. I did the latter as he is a baby. If that scares him (it does) I am sorry, but we all have to deal with things we do not like sometimes. If the options are dying of dehydration, or being stressed I think the former takes precedence.

My methods, may have caused stress but they also seemed to fix the issue. When first here on top of the poo. He didn't move much, he kept closing his eyes and rolling them inside. He didn't do anything when I came into his cage to mist him. He wasn't strong enough to be upset. Know he is, the eye issue has stopped, He has stopped gaping for water when I spray, He is very active constantly moving about his cage. He climbs the sides, he is all over exploring. He now gets mad and changes colors, puffs his throat when I open his cage, (he didn't do that at first just sat in the same spot and didn't move). I no longer spray him, as he seems better.

"It is a physiological state and a cascade of hormones that do not go away the moment the stressful event/situation stops." Well could it have been carried over? Thing is I have had this cham for a week, and all of this and more have been happening since the start. He has improved in my care. when he got here he had 1 eye shut alot, that is no longer the case. He was dehydrated, (Orange Poop) which is now white, showing a change right? So could it be the problem is persistent from before?

You say look at my husbandry and handling. However I do not handle him and he has done all this and had other issues since before he arrived (which again was only a week ago). If there are issues which there seem to be, they were long before I came into the picture. Though I may not be doing all I can to rectify them. That is why I am here to ask what more I can do?

He will have to come out of his cage 1 more time, in the next few days. To install the misting system, after which I will not need to mist him that will relieve the only thing that seems to frighten him or bother him.

As to the he isnt "sick of crickets" then why eat mealworms? I am not saying you are wrong it seems odd to me as well. However all through these forums people say the same thing. The big factor is here, he will eat mealworms instantly, ones that are even larger than the crickets, I put crickets and mealworms in there even he ate the mealworms and left the crickets.

It could be the meal worms are a different shape? So while to me they are bigger to him they are not? However if he is not eating as he lacks hydration or due to stress why eat the mealworms? Your conclusion seems to revolve around not eating at all, he is eating. However he will only eat mealworms. When low on babies, I put in 2 more mealworms, 1 was large (almost an inch) the other was smaller but bigger than the babies. Almost 3/4 inch, he ate the semi smaller one not the big one (I didn't think he would eat either). So he is eating prey, larger prey even, he simply is not eating crickets or Dubia.

I do have a black out cloth over 1 side of his enclosure, that will stretch over the door. Sometimes I put that up during the day when I am in the room. He doesn't seem bothered when I am in the room only when I go in his cage. However I have to go in his cage for cleaning and misting and feeding. If that stresses him (I am sure it does) well then what do I do? Not clean, not mist, not feed? That is the only stress I am causing that I can see and its not changeable (the misting system will reduce not eliminate).

 

[cyberlocc]

I said above see below so here it is. I feel he was dehydrated due to the way he came to me. When I ordered him I told them hold off, the temps were low and I was not yet ready. They said okay, then when I was ready I contacted them. I was told they were "Out" and had a shipment coming in of new babies. That it would be there Tuesday, I said okay temps are good on Tuesday, ship him them. I received a call on Tuesday, they said there package of babies didn't arrive but should be there Tomorrow. The next day they called, and said they received them. I said okay temps are a little low tonight and tomorrow, it would likely be okay if you provide a heat pack. However next Tuesday would be better. They said the temps would be fine and they would like to ship today, I said Okay (Maybe shouldn't have).

So they shipped him. So he went 2 days in a box, to another box to me. I am not sure if they fed him, watered him, ect in between (they likely didn't). So the following day he arrived at the local Fed Ex, in the morning (he went for the 5 hour drive through the coldest part of the night, of which was under 40f) Then he sat at the Fed Ex office till they decided to bring him at 4:30pm, apparently they didn't get the morning ship. So 10 more hours in a box on a truck.

Then he got here, with a semi wet paper towel under him, where he had likely been for over 3 days. Dehydrated and surely stressed. Oh and I almost forgot, NO HEATPACK! So safe to say I will never deal with those guys ever again. I questioned it, after reading many reviews and hearing lots of bad things. However I come here and see them getting put on a pedestal so I jumped with them, I am not fully happy with them however. Over half of the crickets with him were also dead, with the rest dying over the next day. However I am not here to talk about that. Just figured I would give you some more background.

I put this in its own post so that the other is not deleted. As I have seen on this forum that the forum sponsor I bought from complaints about them get deleted. This was however not a complaint or bashing them. It was simply relevant to the issues at hand. So I figured I would state them.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I have a lot better idea what is going on. Thanks for all the details. It explains a lot.

Correct me if I'm wrong. This is my understanding of your little guy's history:

You bought him from a big internet retailer. They didn't have what you wanted and were waiting on a shipment from a supplier. When those babies finally arrived, the weather wasn't suitable to ship. You fear he might have not been fed or watered for about three days. (As an aside, heat kills more chameleons in shipping than cold weather, so I wouldn't worry about there being no heat pack. A wet paper towel is standard for shipping.)

When I looked at your pictures, I didn't see a baby that really worried me. What you were telling me did cause me a bit of concern, though. I missed that s/he would eat meal worms.

This is what I think happened: I think your baby came from a breeder who only fed mealworms. I don't think s/he recognizes crickets as food. You can change that.

Your caging sounds right. I hope a panther breeder chimes in and gives you the correct temps for such a small baby. I'll see if I can get an answer for you. My gut feeling is the temps are a bit too high, but I've never owned a panther. Babies probably want it cooler than adults. The hotter it is, the faster and more easily they dehydrate, which is a huge issue for babies so small and your baby in particular since s/he already was severely dehydrated when he came to you.

My biggest concern is still dehydration right now. It seems s/he went through the ringer getting to you.

I think you should give yourself a big pat on the back that s/he didn't die on you. Weak, severely dehydrated animals are challenging and much more so for a novice, especially a novice expecting a healthy baby to pop out of the box. The novice has to be able to recognize they have a problem and that takes experience which they don't have. I think you've done a fantastic job. This kind of story doesn't always have a good ending.

I, too, would be really angry getting a baby in that condition. I would excuse them if the package got lost, but I don't think that happened.

I would also be very unhappy they sent me a baby who doesn't know how to eat crickets, pretty much a staple feeder. If I am right, that your baby came from a breeder who only fed fruit flies and then meal worms, I would expect this baby to be malnourished, probably malnourished before s/he came out of the egg. If the breeder isn't feeding babies well, why would the breeder feed the mother well? The mother has to put in a lot of nutrition into those eggs and if she doesn't have it, the eggs suffer. So, right off the bat, treat this baby as if it has severe nutritional deficits. Calcium and Vitamin A are two things the mother puts in the egg that the baby relies on for months after hatching. So, Vitamin A deficiency (common in captive chameleons) is a concern. At the same time, Vitamin A is toxic as it builds up. Just keep that in your mind as you make feeding decisions.

If s/he were my baby, I would be be very fussy about nutrition. Your baby isn't eating well, but a baby needs to eat. Start feeding your mealworms really fresh Vitamin A-rich foods. Feed all your feeders especially Vitamin A rich foods. Take feeding your feeders as seriously as feeding your baby because they are one and the same. Buy your feeders in advance and feed them a week on super healthy food before you feed them to your baby--get those feeders healthy and nutritious. I would not feed vitamins very often, partly because I have no faith in the quality or even what is actually in them. Get the vitamins that have preformed Vitamin A--that's the Vitamin A from animal sources (retinol). There is no evidence a chameleon can convert proformed Vitamin A--those derived from plants such as Beta Carotene--into usable Vitamin A. Vitamin A in feeders is found mostly in the eyes, and small feeders have more Vitamin A than larger feeders.

I would also worry that this baby wasn't supplemented properly with calcium and might have had very poor lighting so what calcium it got it was not able to use. I dust all my feeders with calcium at every meal. They can only absorb a finite amount of calcium at any time, so I would make sure the baby had calcium twice a day.

That's how I would treat this baby. In the back of my mind always I would think I was dealing with a very poorly nourished animal.

There is no excuse for your baby arriving so dehydrated. You didn't buy a wild caught that was just imported! There is just no excuse for that. Dehydration doesn't go away in one day. It takes a long time for them to get over a bout of dehydration. You are correct, a shower is not the answer for him. I would soak his cage every hour until he has been hydrated for several days. The color of the urates is only one way to gauge his hydration level. Based on your pictures, it looks like he is out of the woods as far as dehydration is concerned.

When they get dehydrated their eyes can get stuck shut. That rolling the eyes inside the turret is the baby cleaning them. The really need mist to clean their eyes. (Another reason I think a good automatic mister a necessary piece of equipment. This may still be the remnants of the bout with dehydration.

Now you have to train him to eat something other than meal worms. I am assuming Baby will eat, but just won't eat anything other than mealworms, correct? If baby isn't eating anything, you have a different problem that needs a different approach. A baby as young as yours should be an eating machine. Try to find some Hydei fruit flies. They are pretty big. You can dust them with calcium--just dump them in a big smooth-sided bowl with powdered calcium in the bottom and shake them up. When they start to climb out of the bowl, just give the bowl a tap and they'll fall down especially if coated in calcium.

Where are you located? Maybe there is someone near you that has tiny feeders. I hope you are in my area--I have a lot of little feeders you could try.

Feed the healthy food in the morning when baby is the hungriest. Start with fruit flies. Baby had to have been fed fruit flies as a tiny baby.Let baby get good and hungry. If baby still refuses to eat, feed as many meal worms as baby wants in the mid afternoon. Don't pay attention to the feed-only-in-the-morning dogma. (Boy, I'm cranky so early in the morning!)

Try to find some black soldier fly larvae. If you are lucky, you will live in an area where they are endemic and all you'll have to do is raid someone's compost heap. The black soldier fly larvae you buy seem really runty so I don't think they are very well nourished. They are sold under the names of calci worms and phoenix worms. You will have to feed them because if you don't they will continue to cannibalize their bodies and become less and less nutritious. They are a challenge to keep because they can turn fresh veggies into a disgusting stinky soup pretty quickly. They are still a very good nutritious food (as long as they have been well fed!) and they are somewhat similar to a mealworm.

Get some tiny silkworms. Try some flies. You can buy fly larvae from a bait store or catch your own. A good butterfly net helps. Also misting the air around the fly reflects the light so they have trouble seeing and are easier to catch.

I hope this helps. Keep us posted.

 

[cyberlocc]

Spoiler

I have a lot better idea what is going on. Thanks for all the details. It explains a lot.

Correct me if I'm wrong. This is my understanding of your little guy's history:

You bought him from a big internet retailer. They didn't have what you wanted and were waiting on a shipment from a supplier. When those babies finally arrived, the weather wasn't suitable to ship. You fear he might have not been fed or watered for about three days. (As an aside, heat kills more chameleons in shipping than cold weather, so I wouldn't worry about there being no heat pack. A wet paper towel is standard for shipping.)

When I looked at your pictures, I didn't see a baby that really worried me. What you were telling me did cause me a bit of concern, though. I missed that s/he would eat meal worms.

This is what I think happened: I think your baby came from a breeder who only fed mealworms. I don't think s/he recognizes crickets as food. You can change that.

Your caging sounds right. I hope a panther breeder chimes in and gives you the correct temps for such a small baby. I'll see if I can get an answer for you. My gut feeling is the temps are a bit too high, but I've never owned a panther. Babies probably want it cooler than adults. The hotter it is, the faster and more easily they dehydrate, which is a huge issue for babies so small and your baby in particular since s/he already was severely dehydrated when he came to you.

My biggest concern is still dehydration right now. It seems s/he went through the ringer getting to you.

I think you should give yourself a big pat on the back that s/he didn't die on you. Weak, severely dehydrated animals are challenging and much more so for a novice, especially a novice expecting a healthy baby to pop out of the box. The novice has to be able to recognize they have a problem and that takes experience which they don't have. I think you've done a fantastic job. This kind of story doesn't always have a good ending.

I, too, would be really angry getting a baby in that condition. I would excuse them if the package got lost, but I don't think that happened.

I would also be very unhappy they sent me a baby who doesn't know how to eat crickets, pretty much a staple feeder. If I am right, that your baby came from a breeder who only fed fruit flies and then meal worms, I would expect this baby to be malnourished, probably malnourished before s/he came out of the egg. If the breeder isn't feeding babies well, why would the breeder feed the mother well? The mother has to put in a lot of nutrition into those eggs and if she doesn't have it, the eggs suffer. So, right off the bat, treat this baby as if it has severe nutritional deficits. Calcium and Vitamin A are two things the mother puts in the egg that the baby relies on for months after hatching. So, Vitamin A deficiency (common in captive chameleons) is a concern. At the same time, Vitamin A is toxic as it builds up. Just keep that in your mind as you make feeding decisions.

If s/he were my baby, I would be be very fussy about nutrition. Your baby isn't eating well, but a baby needs to eat. Start feeding your mealworms really fresh Vitamin A-rich foods. Feed all your feeders especially Vitamin A rich foods. Take feeding your feeders as seriously as feeding your baby because they are one and the same. Buy your feeders in advance and feed them a week on super healthy food before you feed them to your baby--get those feeders healthy and nutritious. I would not feed vitamins very often, partly because I have no faith in the quality or even what is actually in them. Get the vitamins that have preformed Vitamin A--that's the Vitamin A from animal sources (retinol). There is no evidence a chameleon can convert proformed Vitamin A--those derived from plants such as Beta Carotene--into usable Vitamin A. Vitamin A in feeders is found mostly in the eyes, and small feeders have more Vitamin A than larger feeders.

I would also worry that this baby wasn't supplemented properly with calcium and might have had very poor lighting so what calcium it got it was not able to use. I dust all my feeders with calcium at every meal. They can only absorb a finite amount of calcium at any time, so I would make sure the baby had calcium twice a day.

That's how I would treat this baby. In the back of my mind always I would think I was dealing with a very poorly nourished animal.

There is no excuse for your baby arriving so dehydrated. You didn't buy a wild caught that was just imported! There is just no excuse for that. Dehydration doesn't go away in one day. It takes a long time for them to get over a bout of dehydration. You are correct, a shower is not the answer for him. I would soak his cage every hour until he has been hydrated for several days. The color of the urates is only one way to gauge his hydration level. Based on your pictures, it looks like he is out of the woods as far as dehydration is concerned.

When they get dehydrated their eyes can get stuck shut. That rolling the eyes inside the turret is the baby cleaning them. The really need mist to clean their eyes. (Another reason I think a good automatic mister a necessary piece of equipment. This may still be the remnants of the bout with dehydration.

Now you have to train him to eat something other than meal worms. I am assuming Baby will eat, but just won't eat anything other than mealworms, correct? If baby isn't eating anything, you have a different problem that needs a different approach. A baby as young as yours should be an eating machine. Try to find some Hydei fruit flies. They are pretty big. You can dust them with calcium--just dump them in a big smooth-sided bowl with powdered calcium in the bottom and shake them up. When they start to climb out of the bowl, just give the bowl a tap and they'll fall down especially if coated in calcium.

Where are you located? Maybe there is someone near you that has tiny feeders. I hope you are in my area--I have a lot of little feeders you could try.

Feed the healthy food in the morning when baby is the hungriest. Start with fruit flies. Baby had to have been fed fruit flies as a tiny baby.Let baby get good and hungry. If baby still refuses to eat, feed as many meal worms as baby wants in the mid afternoon. Don't pay attention to the feed-only-in-the-morning dogma. (Boy, I'm cranky so early in the morning!)

Try to find some black soldier fly larvae. If you are lucky, you will live in an area where they are endemic and all you'll have to do is raid someone's compost heap. The black soldier fly larvae you buy seem really runty so I don't think they are very well nourished. They are sold under the names of calci worms and phoenix worms. You will have to feed them because if you don't they will continue to cannibalize their bodies and become less and less nutritious. They are a challenge to keep because they can turn fresh veggies into a disgusting stinky soup pretty quickly. They are still a very good nutritious food (as long as they have been well fed!) and they are somewhat similar to a mealworm.

Get some tiny silkworms. Try some flies. You can buy fly larvae from a bait store or catch your own. A good butterfly net helps. Also misting the air around the fly reflects the light so they have trouble seeing and are easier to catch.

I hope this helps. Keep us posted.

You have that 100% correct.

I placed an order last night from Mulberry Farms (though it will Tuesday till stuff gets here). I got Silkworms (well Eggs, hopefully they hatch fairly fast, high heat on the way here so I think they will) Baby Superworms, Butter Worms (likely too big, but I know they keep for a bit and can be semi gutloaded, plus its was 5 dollars for 25 couldn't pass that up .).

As for gutload, I have been gutloading my crickets however the few he ate were prior the roaches are being gutloaded. My gutload consist of, Kale (1 leaf regular, 1 leaf boiled), Carrots, (3 full size carrots) Collard Greens (1 leaf) Dandelion (lots of Dandelion, it grows here as a weed) Half a Yam (the yam was .83lbs, I used a small half of it so like .3-.4 pounds)
A huge orange (Forget what they are called my wife buys them, its an orange but almost the size of a grapefruit, 1 of those) A little less than a quarter of a normal sized mango, A tablespoon of calcium, a dash of Reptivite.

I took all that, and blended it to a pastey substances, then froze it in Ice cubes. Its not as much as I wanted for the mix, but it was what I had on hand, and pick able leaves. So I got it going for now and will make more with different stuff more stuff soon.

And I also assumed from the start he was malnourished, I been giving calcium on everything, and put it in the gutload. I gave him MV second day he was here as I think they probably never did.

I am going to try some bait shops locally and see if I can find some flys, or at least some more meal worms (babys).

 

[jajeanpierre]

You have that 100% correct.

I placed an order last night from Mulberry Farms (though it will Tuesday till stuff gets here). I got Silkworms (well Eggs, hopefully they hatch fairly fast, high heat on the way here so I think they will) Baby Superworms, Butter Worms (likely too big, but I know they keep for a bit and can be semi gutloaded, plus its was 5 dollars for 25 couldn't pass that up .).

As for gutload, I have been gutloading my crickets however the few he ate were prior the roaches are being gutloaded. My gutload consist of, Kale (1 leaf regular, 1 leaf boiled), Carrots, (3 full size carrots) Collard Greens (1 leaf) Dandelion (lots of Dandelion, it grows here as a weed) Half a Yam (the yam was .83lbs, I used a small half of it so like .3-.4 pounds)
A huge orange (Forget what they are called my wife buys them, its an orange but almost the size of a grapefruit, 1 of those) A little less than a quarter of a normal sized mango, A tablespoon of calcium, a dash of Reptivite.

I took all that, and blended it to a pastey substances, then froze it in Ice cubes. Its not as much as I wanted for the mix, but it was what I had on hand, and pick able leaves. So I got it going for now and will make more with different stuff more stuff soon.

And I also assumed from the start he was malnourished, I been giving calcium on everything, and put it in the gutload. I gave him MV second day he was here as I think they probably never did.

I am going to try some bait shops locally and see if I can find some flys, or at least some more meal worms (babys).

Most times these kind of stories end up turning out badly. I think the reason is that many people don't do all the jumping through hoops you sometimes have to do to keep them alive. They really don't want to die, but they will. Just persevering and really observing (without stressing) will get you over this hump. You will be a much wiser and better chameleon keeper keeping this little one going. You don't really learn a lot when everything goes by the book!

Chameleons are tough, tougher than a lot of people think but they are also fragile if that makes sense. I think dehydration (and stress) are the biggest killers. You need to catch him before he is obviously declining. The default treatment for a declining animal is hydration--lots and lots of water.

I think one of the reasons I do fairly well with wild caughts is because I really observe them. I'll fret about them declining before they really are. It's subtle, that switch to doing well to a decline that quickly can turn into life threatening.

If you ever look in at your baby and just get the impression for a split second that he does't look good, trust your instincts and act on it. That's how a decline starts. You look in and for a brief flash you think, huh, he doesn't look so good. And then he does look good again. Don't ignore your gut feelings. Trust your first impression and you'll catch him BEFORE he gets into trouble.

I know how stressful and trying this time is but stick to it. Most people don't give it the effort it requires or notice early enough. It's really hard for a novice to see a new baby get into trouble. They can dehydrate so quickly.

You are doing great.

Where are you located? Any chance you are in Texas? I'm in South Central Texas and I could get you all kinds of interesting little bugs for your guy if you were close to me.

 

[cyberlocc]

Most times these kind of stories end up turning out badly. I think the reason is that many people don't do all the jumping through hoops you sometimes have to do to keep them alive. They really don't want to die, but they will. Just persevering and really observing (without stressing) will get you over this hump. You will be a much wiser and better chameleon keeper keeping this little one going. You don't really learn a lot when everything goes by the book!

Chameleons are tough, tougher than a lot of people think but they are also fragile if that makes sense. I think dehydration (and stress) are the biggest killers. You need to catch him before he is obviously declining. The default treatment for a declining animal is hydration--lots and lots of water.

I think one of the reasons I do fairly well with wild caughts is because I really observe them. I'll fret about them declining before they really are. It's subtle, that switch to doing well to a decline that quickly can turn into life threatening.

If you ever look in at your baby and just get the impression for a split second that he does't look good, trust your instincts and act on it. That's how a decline starts. You look in and for a brief flash you think, huh, he doesn't look so good. And then he does look good again. Don't ignore your gut feelings. Trust your first impression and you'll catch him BEFORE he gets into trouble.

I know how stressful and trying this time is but stick to it. Most people don't give it the effort it requires or notice early enough. It's really hard for a novice to see a new baby get into trouble. They can dehydrate so quickly.

You are doing great.

Where are you located? Any chance you are in Texas? I'm in South Central Texas and I could get you all kinds of interesting little bugs for your guy if you were close to me.

I am not in texas.

Thanks for the kind words. And ya I had a gut feeling that something was wrong the second he arrived. I have been trying to read and learn everything I can about these guys. Nothing prepares you for when they actually get here though IMO. But that may be because I am overly dedicated (I think that is a good thing). I try to keep a close eye without stressing him. I work from home kind of, my business store is in front of my house so am 100 feet away from work, (and its semi slow, so I am in the house alot). So I am here all day everyday to watch this little guy and make sure that he gets what he needs.

So in that regard I am in a lucky way for this little guy. It would be a lot harder for someone that has to go to work all day.

When I first got him and seen he was weak, I didn't even wait for the poop, to start misting like crazy. I just made the assumption giving the circumstances that he was dehydrated and started to treat it , turned out I was right. First time I sprayed him he ran to the water mouth open drinking like crazy. I watched him then walk around with his tongue out and roll it on wet leaves. He doesnt do that anymore, I dont see him drink anymore (Though I am sure he does as his cage stays wet). I try to ensure at least part of his plant remains wet all day if he has lights he has water. Distilled water BTW, so no chlorine ect, I bought 10 gallons when getting him, he is down to the last 1 I just opened this morning so lots of water in his cage . Between the dripper and the mister about a gallon a day.

My grandfather is coming up here today or tomorrow (and bringing the Pro Mist ) I called him and asked him to pick up FF from Petco we dont have a Petco here . So I will have FF in the next day or 2, and worms on Wednesday.

I put 2 of the smallest Dubia I can find (they are smaller then the space between his eyes on the top of his head) and some of those cleaner beetles (dermestid I believe, black shiny came with the roaches) I know they have hard shells but hopefully a few wont hurt.

I did get along with the baby dubia, 7 adult females and 2 adult males, 1 male passed but all the females made it okay. So hopefully they will start breeding soon (I have there tank between 83-87 during the day and night dropping to 75-80). Then I can try to feed him some of the tiny white roaches .

I will update this when I get him to eat and what all he eats. Or if he eats the beetles, I have giving him 12 hour access to food. I put the food in around 10 am and leave it till lights off. He seems to go look at the bowl (but not eat) when I put it in, he normally comes goes and stares at it for awhile and eats or doesn't around 5pm, so maybe that was his feeding schedule. It makes it hard buying from a middle man. I dont know what kind of feeding schedule he was on ect . Next time I will buy from a reputable breeder, I got him on sale very cheap and am starting to see why. Future chams I will not make that mistake. And Oh yes there will be more , I am a semi cheap skate when I can be. And have the time and energy to breed the feeders, so why stop at one, and have tons of extra feeders .
I also have a "Man Cave" which is fairly large, 1 small room (use to be a laundry room, is about 7.5x5ft 6 feet roof) that I am turning into a "Bug Room". Then the main room, is 16x20 with a slope ceiling 7ft on 1 side and 6 on the other. So I am going to use that as the Chameleon room, right now I got renovations to do before he goes in there though. So I plan to setup a few chams in there and *maybe* a few Dragonstrand breeder racks, if I decide to do that. I figured it would be fun small scale and give me something to do with the ample amounts of free time I have. Slow work time, that I usually watch Netflix and waste away , I am stuck here with slow work, so might as well do something productive.

 

[cyberlocc]

Most times these kind of stories end up turning out badly. I think the reason is that many people don't do all the jumping through hoops you sometimes have to do to keep them alive. They really don't want to die, but they will. Just persevering and really observing (without stressing) will get you over this hump. You will be a much wiser and better chameleon keeper keeping this little one going. You don't really learn a lot when everything goes by the book!

Chameleons are tough, tougher than a lot of people think but they are also fragile if that makes sense. I think dehydration (and stress) are the biggest killers. You need to catch him before he is obviously declining. The default treatment for a declining animal is hydration--lots and lots of water.

I think one of the reasons I do fairly well with wild caughts is because I really observe them. I'll fret about them declining before they really are. It's subtle, that switch to doing well to a decline that quickly can turn into life threatening.

If you ever look in at your baby and just get the impression for a split second that he does't look good, trust your instincts and act on it. That's how a decline starts. You look in and for a brief flash you think, huh, he doesn't look so good. And then he does look good again. Don't ignore your gut feelings. Trust your first impression and you'll catch him BEFORE he gets into trouble.

I know how stressful and trying this time is but stick to it. Most people don't give it the effort it requires or notice early enough. It's really hard for a novice to see a new baby get into trouble. They can dehydrate so quickly.

You are doing great.

Where are you located? Any chance you are in Texas? I'm in South Central Texas and I could get you all kinds of interesting little bugs for your guy if you were close to me.

Hey so while I have you here I have another question. When I drain the drain pan water it is brow is that normal? I only drain it like onces a week (Have drained it twice). Most of the water evaporates but what drains is brown.

I am assuming that the poop is getting flushed, and causing the water to turn brown. However could it be the plant? Or something else?

 

[jajeanpierre]

I think the water is brown from the potting soil. It is with mine. The stool doesn't dissolve in water unless the chameleon has really loose stool.

 

[cyberlocc]

I think the water is brown from the potting soil. It is with mine. The stool doesn't dissolve in water unless the chameleon has really loose stool.

Ya I thought it was possibly the soil as well. Thanks for clarifying yours is also brown that is all I need to know lol.

Update on feeding, I seen him staring in the cup a bit ago. Didnt eat any of it, hopefully he will take to the FF and silkies.

 

[cyberlocc]

I think the water is brown from the potting soil. It is with mine. The stool doesn't dissolve in water unless the chameleon has really loose stool.

Hey so my grandfather wont be able to come till like Tuesday or Wednesday. What should I do? should I force feed him? I am really worried about this how can he go this long without food?

Should I liquefy some bugs and syringe feed it to him?

Even if I order FF right now, they wont be here till Tuesday at the soonest, he hasnt eaten in days!

 

[jajeanpierre]

Hey so my grandfather wont be able to come till like Tuesday or Wednesday. What should I do? should I force feed him? I am really worried about this how can he go this long without food?

Should I liquefy some bugs and syringe feed it to him?

Even if I order FF right now, they wont be here till Tuesday at the soonest, he hasnt eaten in days!

I'm confused. I thought you said he was eating meal worms. Is he? If he is, feed him the meal worms later in the day and offer the other stuff in the morning.

If he is not eating anything, that's a whole different ball game and I would have him in to a vet.

Because he is looking at them, that suggests he wants to eat. So why isn't he? Is the feeder the wrong size? Does he eat out of a cup? (Some never do.) All kinds of questions that you have to ask yourself to solve this puzzle.

Have you found any stool?

Does he eat meal worms from a cup?

Can you post a picture of him tomorrow?

You can buy fruit flies at a pet store. Call around. You might only get melanogaster, but try that. Anything to get him interested in something other than meal worms.

 

[cyberlocc]

I'm confused. I thought you said he was eating meal worms. Is he? If he is, feed him the meal worms later in the day and offer the other stuff in the morning.

If he is not eating anything, that's a whole different ball game and I would have him in to a vet.

Because he is looking at them, that suggests he wants to eat. So why isn't he? Is the feeder the wrong size? Does he eat out of a cup? (Some never do.) All kinds of questions that you have to ask yourself to solve this puzzle.

Have you found any stool?

Does he eat meal worms from a cup?

Can you post a picture of him tomorrow?

You can buy fruit flies at a pet store. Call around. You might only get melanogaster, but try that. Anything to get him interested in something other than meal worms.

I was feeding him meal worms yes. However I ran out of babies, and the pet store doesn't have any mealworms at all. I am going to try the hunt tomorrow at circle ks ect for meal worms. I managed to find 3 smallish ones (pretty sure he wouldn't eat these 2 last time) and one freshly molted. I put those in his cup but that was after his typical feeding time he didn't go to look, beyond seeing it my hand. So I will try them again tomorrow.

I can post a pic of him right now he isnt asleep yet (well lights out in a bit). (including pic, kinda blurry I was trying to take it fast as he hides from the camera so had to take him out to get the pic.) He is puffing up, so not happy about coming out lol.
View media item 42497
Yes I found poop, today after cleaning his cage so it was 100% from today. The urates were slightly yellow tinted (so dehydrated again). The brown was small, about half the size it normally is maybe a little more in length.

Yes he does eat from the cup. The only time he has eaten aside from the cup was a cricket I put right in front of him. the other crickets and meal worms he has eaten were all from the cup.

Here is a pic of the Cup and the feeders I gave him today.

Some of the beetles are larger, one is 1/8 inch. They are all smaller then the gap between his eyes on the top of his head. (well aside from the meal worms, the smallest meal worm is about the size of the others he ate).

As far as pet stores for the Fruit Flys. Nope 1 pet store in town and all they carry is crickets (not even close to pinhead size, larger than what I already had) huge superworms, mealworms (they are out atm) and they just starting carrying Dubia, but again there smallest is 1/2 inch. What I find odd about that is they also carry chams lol. Yet no food for said chams. Well they have 1 veiled and she is 8 months old, but I think they are more opportunistic. Its a small ma and pop shop. I live in a small town, we have Walmart that is about it lol.

The closest Petco is a little over 3 hours away.
As for the pics here you go. I posted my finger as reference. The feeder cup is a small mealworm cup, maybe 3 inches wide.
View media item 42498
The last meal worm he ate was on Friday and he ate 2.

Edit, I measure the bugs. The smallest mealworm is little less than 3/4 inch. The beetle is a tad less than 1/4 inch.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Fiesty little devil! S/he looks good.

My babies are eating and pooping machines. That's the way babies are supposed to be.

Have you put any crickets in free range in the cage? My cages tend to have a lot of feeder bugs loose. Baby chameleons are not all that good at problem solving. I always make sure they can easily find food.

Did you try to catch some flies? Pinhead crickets are too small.