B. Transvaalense update

[Turningdoc]

I have now kept this species for 9 months. Tried keeping as a pair and separate in 18x18x36 screen cages outdoor 24/7 under shaded lanai. Use Aracadia 6% fluoro tube lighting w incandescent basking bulbs. Mistking used twice a day for 1 min. Feed 1/4 crix, blue bottles, and baby supers when I can get them. Lost male due to eye infxn. Here is LuLu









I have found them to be relatively sedate and reclusive except when feeding when they are extremely active predators.

 

[Saldarya]

Turning,

Can you share some info as to the limited length of time misting? 1 min 2x a day seems low, but if they take to the water droplets quickly , I guess it doesn't matter.

Are you concerned with too wet of an environment? Not drying out enough? etc...

Thank you much.

Bobby

 

[showjet95]

My transvaalense are not reclusive AT ALL. They are always in plain sight and active.
Saldarya, 2 mistings a day for 1 minute each time is way more than enough. Thats actually too much. I mist their cages 3 times a day, morning afternoon and later in the evening and just enough to get all of the foliage wet and dripping. I would estimate I spray each cage each session for about 10 seconds. They are also kept singly in "sun sanctuary" cages. Ive posted pics of their set ups before and have sent you some pics. Lemme know if you have any more questions.

 

[Turningdoc]

Remember, these guys are tiny. Likely a few drops of water a day would sustain them. I live in 95% humidity and keep them outside, so if you have lower humidity this may not be enough. Honestly, I think its more helpful to the plants! Research will show you these guys live in bushes in relatively hot, dry climate.
No offense Showjet, but due to nearly universal failure with keeping these in the US, I don't think anyone is expert in their husbandry. I would frequently adjust your water to the animals. I really don't think you are likely to cause problems with their health unless way to one extreme or the other as S. Africa in their native range has highly variable weather and they should be very adaptable. IMO diet and size of free range are more likely the long-term husbandry problems in this species.

 

[Saldarya]

Remember, these guys are tiny. Likely a few drops of water a day would sustain them. I live in 95% humidity and keep them outside, so if you have lower humidity this may not be enough. Honestly, I think its more helpful to the plants! Research will show you these guys live in bushes in relatively hot, dry climate.
No offense Showjet, but due to nearly universal failure with keeping these in the US, I don't think anyone is expert in their husbandry. I would frequently adjust your water to the animals. I really don't think you are likely to cause problems with their health unless way to one extreme or the other as S. Africa in their native range has highly variable weather and they should be very adaptable. IMO diet and size of free range are more likely the long-term husbandry problems in this species.

Good Info, thank you for the response. Do you feel the 18"x36" cage is adequate for the individual animal?

 

[showjet95]

There is a lot more to what has been the demise of most that have been imported then our husbandry. This will be a topic I will make known in the very near future. My husbandry is spot on. I keep them EXACTLY how alot of the European breeders keep them and I am in regular contact with 3 or 4 of them. I have racked their brains for info constantly over the last couple years

 

[showjet95]

Good Info, thank you for the response. Do you feel the 18"x36" cage is adequate for the individual animal?

That size cage is more than adequate for one Bradypodion.

 

[Turningdoc]

I think 18x18x36 seems adequate, but again no one has had them breed, so real answer is ???????

Showjet, please do tell. I'm sure those of us who have lost the 20+ animals brought in can't wait for the reveal. I'm still trying hard to analyze, but you're asking us to wait to find out in the near future? Like after you sell yours as posted? You're losing credibility here my friend.

 

[coldbloodedAL]

I think 18x18x36 seems adequate, but again no one has had them breed, so real answer is ???????

Showjet, please do tell. I'm sure those of us who have lost the 20+ animals brought in can't wait for the reveal. I'm still trying hard to analyze, but you're asking us to wait to find out in the near future? Like after you sell yours as posted? You're losing credibility here my friend.

Cage size is fine... I keep mine in 16x18x30 cages, mine have bred, and my pairs nearing age and size are all ready to roll soooo.....

Only difference is, I'm keeping thamnobates.

 

[kameleons jvo]

I think 18x18x36 seems adequate, but again no one has had them breed, so real answer is ???????

Showjet, please do tell. I'm sure those of us who have lost the 20+ animals brought in can't wait for the reveal. I'm still trying hard to analyze, but you're asking us to wait to find out in the near future? Like after you sell yours as posted? You're losing credibility here my friend.

After reading many story's on this forum about problems with Bradypodionspecies i dit some research about what could be the problem with Bradypodions in the US.
I few things were clearly not normals i was keeping bradypodions and several of my friends also for over 10 years and we never had such a big problems and losses as you guys had.
Overall Brady species in Europe have the reputation to be very hardy,most of the year kept outside and very easy to breed(except damaranum they breed very slowly).
I work together with one of the best(maybe the best) brady breeder in Germany.
He keeps and breed for more than 10 years thamnobates,setaroy,transvaalense,pumillum an damaranum,this year he had around 300 baby's.
I was telling him about all this bad story's in the US and he told me most of these problems you guys having are because of heavy inbreeding of the animals.
The most important thing for breeding and keeping bradys is always surch for new bloodlines ,even after 2 generations inbreeding quality of animals go down and they seems to get infertile and vulnerable for many problems(diseases).
So i contacted Paul with the question where his animals came from in Germany.
Paul told me who it was(i'm not gonna tell is name for private reasons) and was hearing what his reputation was by the other breeders.
It turned out that he got the worst reputation of all he caused problems between breeders some years ago an nobody wants to chair bloodlines with him for many years.
So his collection went down and eventually he started to export animals to the US.
Its a bit of a sad story because Paul and Garret were not aware of the quality of his animals
So after a talk about it with Paul we will send in the near future some totally new bloodlines to the US from very good breeders.
We want to do this after the Uganda shipments that takes way more time than expected but this is not in our hands.
We hope to give breeders a new good start in the US to work with this nice species.

 

[bifidus]

I am breeding Bradypodions, too, so I am reading with about that US failure with surprise. I will say following: Damaranum is not easy species and transvaalense have sometimes "their flies" as well. Pumilum, thamnobates and setaroi looks to me to be without unpleasant surprises (although thamnobates Mooi river breeds not as easy as Notthingham road). What I wrote about damaranum and transvaalense is however about getting offspring. They live but get living offspring is not that easy. Even by other species it has some problems because you need different setups in summer and winter time.
I wholehartely believe that Bradypodions must be kept outside as minimum for 5 months, otherwise it will be difficult to keep them alive.
However if you can have them outside for almost 8 month like I can (I am "hiding" them just if temperatures go bellow 3°C) they are hardy.
Misting - they are relatively low dry sensitive. Even if you do not mist them 10 days (in colder months) no problem (I did it just when I was out). Except hottest days you do not even need mist them daily. I do it, but if I will not there will be no problem. I see when they drink. You can mist them several times daily but it has no sense.
Cage size... My opinion is that for pair it should be 40x40x60 cm (not inches!) as minimum. 30x30x60 is enough sor some but not for all. I have them in 45x45x70 and this is enough for sure and it looks optimal to me. If cage is larger food waste increases.
Inbreeding - I do not know if it can cause so massive dying. In every litter are some specimens weak and not growing (1/4 or so) well. Those should responsible breeder exclude from sales and further breeding. I try get "new blood" for every new breeding pair but I have my doubts how it helps because may be all stock here is blood related. However if we look at leachianus Mt. Koghis, Poindimie, Riviere bleue etc (all those around are from just very, very few original pairs if not some from one pair) than I feel inbreeding is not as big danger if you exclude those not 100% animals from further breeding attempts.
But I can not imagine that all those are dying due to inbreeding like primary factor. They must look weak and bad from start and I do not believe that all those experienced breeders getting them were not protesting im mediately. I think that simple they have got some disease in, prior or after transport, this happens. If they were stronger and healthier with no inbreeding may be will be still alive in larger no but may be not. So it could be simple bad luck and point finger to the "guilty" is questionable (and no, exporter is not my friend if I correctly guess who it was).

 

[kameleons jvo]

Jest like you sad they all come from a few unrelated pairs that came in from the start so you need to be very careful to select your bloodlines.
Everybody is free to give hes opinion but i stay 100 pro cent after my mail.
I see the proof with my own eyes.

 

[kameleons jvo]

I am breeding Bradypodions, too, so I am reading with about that US failure with surprise. I will say following: Damaranum is not easy species and transvaalense have sometimes "their flies" as well. Pumilum, thamnobates and setaroi looks to me to be without unpleasant surprises (although thamnobates Mooi river breeds not as easy as Notthingham road). What I wrote about damaranum and transvaalense is however about getting offspring. They live but get living offspring is not that easy. Even by other species it has some problems because you need different setups in summer and winter time.
I wholehartely believe that Bradypodions must be kept outside as minimum for 5 months, otherwise it will be difficult to keep them alive.
However if you can have them outside for almost 8 month like I can (I am "hiding" them just if temperatures go bellow 3°C) they are hardy.
Misting - they are relatively low dry sensitive. Even if you do not mist them 10 days (in colder months) no problem (I did it just when I was out). Except hottest days you do not even need mist them daily. I do it, but if I will not there will be no problem. I see when they drink. You can mist them several times daily but it has no sense.
Cage size... My opinion is that for pair it should be 40x40x60 cm (not inches!) as minimum. 30x30x60 is enough sor some but not for all. I have them in 45x45x70 and this is enough for sure and it looks optimal to me. If cage is larger food waste increases.
Inbreeding - I do not know if it can cause so massive dying. In every litter are some specimens weak and not growing (1/4 or so) well. Those should responsible breeder exclude from sales and further breeding. I try get "new blood" for every new breeding pair but I have my doubts how it helps because may be all stock here is blood related. However if we look at leachianus Mt. Koghis, Poindimie, Riviere bleue etc (all those around are from just very, very few original pairs if not some from one pair) than I feel inbreeding is not as big danger if you exclude those not 100% animals from further breeding attempts.
But I can not imagine that all those are dying due to inbreeding like primary factor. They must look weak and bad from start and I do not believe that all those experienced breeders getting them were not protesting im mediately. I think that simple they have got some disease in, prior or after transport, this happens. If they were stronger and healthier with no inbreeding may be will be still alive in larger no but may be not. So it could be simple bad luck and point finger to the "guilty" is questionable (and no, exporter is not my friend if I correctly guess who it was).

Simply bad luck with so many problems on so many animals that's a bad joke

 

[bifidus]

Juergen, bad luck was mean that animals have got some disease "on the way" (can be by in breeders facility as well).

Inbreeding is far more complex problem like earlier thought and not so dangerous as usually thought. Look at many island populations of tortoises, geckos, iguanas. where the whole population is originating from very few, in extrem case from 1 female. Leachianus living on "Nuu ..s" have very little population and just few dominant males those serve like parents for whole offspring. They formed local fenotyps but vitality of population is perfect. Simple it is necessary "terminate" the part with health issues but this already happens in nature where almost always less than 10% of animals come in breeding age. In captivity if we try keep alive even the weak ones it can be more significant.
However "weak" in litter is always less than half. So if died in USA most problem was different, although can be complex and inbreeding one of reasons participating in it. But I do not believe inbreeding can not be the main reason for such disaster. Moreover inbred animals have often clearly visible "deformities" and this nobody reported.

It can be that exporter cares not as good as others about his animals so they are weaker than by them. But I believe that it will be more to "improper care" like due to inbreeding itself (inbreeding can participate like secondary reason) because everybody from us have inbred animals.

 

[kameleons jvo]

Juergen, bad luck was mean that animals have got some disease "on the way" (can be by in breeders facility as well).

Inbreeding is far more complex problem like earlier thought and not so dangerous as usually thought. Look at many island populations of tortoises, geckos, iguanas. where the whole population is originating from very few, in extrem case from 1 female. Leachianus living on "Nuu ..s" have very little population and just few dominant males those serve like parents for whole offspring. They formed local fenotyps but vitality of population is perfect. Simple it is necessary "terminate" the part with health issues but this already happens in nature where almost always less than 10% of animals come in breeding age. In captivity if we try keep alive even the weak ones it can be more significant.
However "weak" in litter is always less than half. So if died in USA most problem was different, although can be complex and inbreeding one of reasons participating in it. But I do not believe inbreeding can not be the main reason for such disaster. Moreover inbred animals have often clearly visible "deformities" and this nobody reported.

It can be that exporter cares not as good as others about his animals so they are weaker than by them. But I believe that it will be more to "improper care" like due to inbreeding itself (inbreeding can participate like secondary reason) because everybody from us have inbred animals.

I'm not agree with you first and for all comparing chameleons with tortoises or other species is wrong in my opinion.
I'm also not agree with your point from 'in every nest you find week ones that not gonna make it'
My friend had 3 nests of damaranum two nest had 100 pro cent to reach to adultness other nest 1 dead on 14 animals.
Again incorrect.
Again i'm not agree with your point of we all inbreed WRONG a few breeders DONT inbreed.
Another thing that you say id that inbreed in not that bad,believe me if i go to hamm i will point you animals coming from breeders who work with unrelated lines and some inbreed animal(they are about half the size of others at the same age.

 

[bifidus]

I'm not agree with you first and for all comparing chameleons with tortoises or other species is wrong in my opinion.

Why? Can you list some scientific work that shows that it is significantly different?

I'm also not agree with your point from 'in every nest you find week ones that not gonna make it'
My friend had 3 nests of damaranum two nest had 100 pro cent to reach to adultness other nest 1 dead on 14 animals.
Again incorrect.

Fact that almost all read adultness does not have anything with fact that some were "better" (growing, feeding, etc). In opposite that can mean that relatively "weaker" animals were allowed to reach adult size and participate in breeding.

Again i'm not agree with your point of we all inbreed WRONG a few breeders DONT inbreed.
Another thing that you say id that inbreed in not that bad,believe me if i go to hamm i will point you animals coming from breeders who work with unrelated lines and some inbreed animal(they are about half the size of others at the same age.

This is possible if you have fresh blood from nature, what is questionable.
I do not that by Bradypodions some could always pair unrelated animals so they are inbred for sure. So if the breeders do not inbred they can not breed Bradypodions.

After more inbred generations is very difficult to tell if "other" animal you get is real or almost any imrovement in genetical diversity.
Size depends on temperature, feeding etc so it is not enough information. If you have all of them in one cage you can say that the largest are best and these not growing bad, but it is difficult to compare between breeders.

I do not doubt that you can offer healthier animals simple because they were better cared or originate from pair that "fits" better so problems are not transfered to offspring.
If they are less inbred, hm, I am not sure because to prove it will be necessary to do DNA testing.
If there were not more lines originally I have my doubts in this case, simple you are not able to tell looking at animals if there are more or less related. However it is not important how much genetical information they share together. Important is if their offspring is vital or not.

 

[kameleons jvo]

Why? Can you list some scientific work that shows that it is significantly different?


Fact that almost all read adultness does not have anything with fact that some were "better" (growing, feeding, etc). In opposite that can mean that relatively "weaker" animals were allowed to reach adult size and participate in breeding.


This is possible if you have fresh blood from nature, what is questionable.
I do not that by Bradypodions some could always pair unrelated animals so they are inbred for sure. So if the breeders do not inbred they can not breed Bradypodions.

After more inbred generations is very difficult to tell if "other" animal you get is real or almost any imrovement in genetical diversity.
Size depends on temperature, feeding etc so it is not enough information. If you have all of them in one cage you can say that the largest are best and these not growing bad, but it is difficult to compare between breeders.

I do not doubt that you can offer healthier animals simple because they were better cared or originate from pair that "fits" better so problems are not transfered to offspring.
If they are less inbred, hm, I am not sure because to prove it will be necessary to do DNA testing.
If there were not more lines originally I have my doubts in this case, simple you are not able to tell looking at animals if there are more or less related. However it is not important how much genetical information they share together. Important is if their offspring is vital or not.[/QUOTE

I'm not agree with you(most of the things you write with all respect)
The breeders i'm working with are one of the few people who received the first pairs when they came in about 10 years ago.
So they put all the lines every year on paper to avoid inbreeding.
Telling that breeders that not inbreed can not breed bradypodions is the most ridiculous thing i ever heard
What i do agree with you is that it is not only good lines but also the way of keeping and how you raise your baby's is extremely important what quality you will reach on the end.
I'm not gonna go in discussions for ever and ever,i think the Bradypodion keepers in the US understand what i mean.
With the hole discussion i mean their is a big difference if you do an import and you get 10 animals in and after 6 months just 2 survived.
Or you import 10 animals and after 6 monts just 2 died and the rest is in top quality.
Thats what i mean with difference in quality.
Like i sad i'm not further going in discussion,special things i will answer by pm.
Jurgen

 

[Turningdoc]

Finally, an honest educated discussion. Thanks guys, all points very well though out. Clearly, this has been more than simple husbandry issues.

 

[laurie]

Thanks to all of you. I paid good money for my pair of transvaalense, and a lot on their set up before they even made it to the US. I have always thought given the time, attention to detail, money for the vet visit, and all the rest it had to be more than just my husbandry. I still don't think I will try again.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Interesting hypothesis and theories, only time and persistent experienced keepers here in the USA with the guidance of European keepers are going to revel the secret to keeping and breeding Bradypodions long term in the North America. This is a task that can be accomplished. Bert did it!