Are we in trouble?

[AngieL]

Thank you for the update Angie. I hope all goes well with Teal and it's the normal edema that female can get due to the forming and laying of eggs.

Thank you Jann my gut tells me she's got eggs but need to be sure! Just wish they would hurry up and call me lol!

 

[AngieL]

reptile vets not available today so we will be getting a call tomorrow morning.

 

[Kate]

Any word from vet Angie?

 

[AngieL]

Hi Kate!

Spoke to the vet this afternoon but admitedly he has no experience with chameleons.

Sooo I explained to hom that we thought she had gular edema and theat it could be egg production, vitamin A or both! I asked him if he did a blood test
would he be able to tell if it was vitamin A and he said he wasn't even sure where to draw blood from!

So he's going to do some research and call me back tomorrow He's a really good vet so hopefully he can help! He graduated from edinburgh so it's hopeful.

On another note, we had a really sunny day here yesterday so we thought we might take Teal'c outside! We tried to get her onto a branch but she ran away. John put his hand in front of her so as she was running from stick she stepped onto his hand! But she grabbed onto some fake lants in her enclosure and wouldn't let go so john put her back on her vine.

We tried this again , moving the plant out the way this time, but instead of going onto his hand she took a dive!!!!!! She landed about half way down her enclosure on a branch. We left it a while and tried again but she did the same but landed down in her palm plant! She didn't hurt herself thankfully.

After this she was freaked out so we didn't try again We've made her enclosure so well for her hiding needs that we can't get at her! lol!

 

[Kate]

I'm sure your vet will have some contacts he can talk to. In Aberdeen we don't have a reptile vet anymore but we do have one who has a great interest in reptiles. When I took Popeye to see him he did all the right things as I have taken previous veiled cams to a reptile vet but she moved away. Keep us posted. It's a shame you can't get her out ov her viv but I'm sure you will find a way. It's been nice here today, have had Popeye out today twice.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Unfortunately you can't test for vitamin A balance in blood, or anything else. Blood is usually drawn from the central tail vein, in case he can't find that answer.

 

[AngieL]

Unfortunately you can't test for vitamin A balance in blood, or anything else. Blood is usually drawn from the central tail vein, in case he can't find that answer.

Thank you so much ferret! I asked him if you could tell by blood but he didn't know. How do you check for vitamin A then? Or is there no way of knowing? EDIT I just re read your post that there is no way of knowing!

We're pretty sure she has eggs but being first timers, we can't be 100%. I'm thinking to take her for an X-ray so we can at least confirm if she's gravid, we know exactly what to do in that case thanks to Jann!

 

[AngieL]

I have spent a lot of time looking at Teal'cs tummy tonight and was wondering if I could get an opinion please? I'm definitely seeing lumps near her hind legs and sometimes seeing a sort of vein popping up around the lumps.

Can you please look at this pic and tell me if the 'vein' is normal?



Thanks guys

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

I have spent a lot of time looking at Teal'cs tummy tonight and was wondering if I could get an opinion please? I'm definitely seeing lumps near her hind legs and sometimes seeing a sort of vein popping up around the lumps.

Can you please look at this pic and tell me if the 'vein' is normal?

View attachment 60603

Thanks guys

What you are seeing does follow the pattern of scales in that area. I don't believe it is a subcu parasite. A subcu parasite would not so precisely follow the scale pattern. And it doesn't really look like a vein either. Something is pressing against the skin. It may be fluid retention, or egg development. If your girl is developing her eggs they will press on the surrounding tissue, causing this anomaly.

The way the tissue creases as it folds over the top of her hind leg it does look like fluid retention. As JannB said this can be associated with eggs.

If she is gravid, as the eggs develop you will also begin to see her 2 fat pads press against the skin in the upper area of her hips. These will look like eggs pressed against the skin. Don't be alarmed. Right before she lays you may begin to see outlines of the real eggs pressed against the skin in the lower half of her body.

At this point we often up the calcium supplements a bit because the girl is calcifying her egg shells at this point and she will need extra calcium left over for the large muscle groups to use when she lays the eggs. This is if we see multiple, large, egg mass pressing against her skin. It tells us she has a large clutch to lay calcium on and needs an extra boost so her bones and large muscle groups are not harmed. This normally applies only to our Veiled ladies.

 

[AngieL]

What you are seeing does follow the pattern of scales in that area. I don't believe it is a subcu parasite. A subcu parasite would not so precisely follow the scale pattern. And it doesn't really look like a vein either. Something is pressing against the skin. It may be fluid retention, or egg development. If your girl is developing her eggs they will press on the surrounding tissue, causing this anomaly.

The way the tissue creases as it folds over the top of her hind leg it does look like fluid retention. As JannB said this can be associated with eggs.

If she is gravid, as the eggs develop you will also begin to see her 2 fat pads press against the skin in the upper area of her hips. These will look like eggs pressed against the skin. Don't be alarmed. Right before she lays you may begin to see outlines of the real eggs pressed against the skin in the lower half of her body.

At this point we often up the calcium supplements a bit because the girl is calcifying her egg shells at this point and she will need extra calcium left over for the large muscle groups to use when she lays the eggs. This is if we see multiple, large, egg mass pressing against her skin. It tells us she has a large clutch to lay calcium on and needs an extra boost so her bones and large muscle groups are not harmed. This normally applies only to our Veiled ladies.

Wow thank you so much! I've read janns blog a million times but nothing can prepare you for your first time!

I didn't think it was parasites but wondered if it could be to do with egg laying. Since she seems to have fluid (gular edema) around her neck it could possibly be fluid in her sides too.

We highly suspect that she is gravid at the moment. I've kind of been waiting for it to happen since she got her big girl colours. She has had a big laying bin in her enclosure 24/7 for about 2 months now but hasnt gone near it yet.

At this point I don't know if I need to get her X-rayed to confirm eggs. I don't want to stress her if it's unnecessary and I'm getting surer that she has them. But I'm worried that the swelling might be due to something else bothering her.

All her feeders bar silk/butter worms are dusted daily but I'm going to ask the vet for liquid calcium when I speak to him tomorrow. Does she just need extra at the end of production or all through?

Also, I want to put her in the trash can laying bin when she's ready to lay but how do you know when she's ready??? I'm not sure if she'll have a large clutch because her food and temps have been lowered to prevent it.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

You don't need to worry about the liquid calcium yet. The gravid-issue isn't certain yet for your girl. (The calcium is an end-stage treatment we use here right before some of our girls lay their eggs, if the clutch looks to be large. I probably shouldn't have mentioned it.)

An Xray is normally only useful if the vet is trying to make a decision about treatment and that decision depends on egg development vs no egg development. In this case I don't know that there's a strong enough relationship.

Wow thank you so much! I've read janns blog a million times but nothing can prepare you for your first time!

I didn't think it was parasites but wondered if it could be to do with egg laying. Since she seems to have fluid (gular edema) around her neck it could possibly be fluid in her sides too.

We highly suspect that she is gravid at the moment. I've kind of been waiting for it to happen since she got her big girl colours. She has had a big laying bin in her enclosure 24/7 for about 2 months now but hasnt gone near it yet.

At this point I don't know if I need to get her X-rayed to confirm eggs. I don't want to stress her if it's unnecessary and I'm getting surer that she has them. But I'm worried that the swelling might be due to something else bothering her.

All her feeders bar silk/butter worms are dusted daily but I'm going to ask the vet for liquid calcium when I speak to him tomorrow. Does she just need extra at the end of production or all through?

Also, I want to put her in the trash can laying bin when she's ready to lay but how do you know when she's ready??? I'm not sure if she'll have a large clutch because her food and temps have been lowered to prevent it.

 

[AngieL]

Thank you again!

We were hoping to get some liquid calcium anyway since she is going to lay eggs some day. But I won't use it now, unless she's looking very big and lumpy!

She's fat (but she always has been) and is wandering around the tank quite a lot, is not so quick to snap up her food, then the edema on top of that is just making me think that she's gravid. Otherwise she is fit and healthy, no sleeping through the day, no gaping, well hydrated too. But I'm so worried that it's not eggs and that's why I want the X-ray. However it's going to be a major stress for her to even get her out of her home, never mind the drive and the vet prodding at her. And if she has eggs I don't want to disturb her.

Also I'm not sure the vet will be able to help with anything, he's a good vet and willing to do some research but he's hasn't treated a Cham before. He will however be able to X-ray her to see if she has eggs.

What would you guys do if it was your girl? And she hated you, and your vet wasn't too sure? Nobody will be held accountable, just looking for opinions

Btw it's night time here so im not holding off, vets calling in the morning and I'll probs go for the X-ray!

 

[AngieL]

Would like to add that the X-ray will only be to confirm if she has eggs or not, unless any of you guys strongly recommend against it.

I know the vet probably won't be able to treat anything if it's not eggs but it would just be good to know if that's what's causing the swelling.

I would hate to leave it and wait for eggs only to find that there's something else wrong and it's too late to do anything about it

 

[jannb]

I would recommend finding a better vets that's familiar with chameleons if at all possible.

 

[AngieL]

Jann we really would if we could



You see that group of islands at the top? That's us.

There's only one vets practice here (well they have 3 clinics dotted around) and the reptile guy has experience with beardies, geckos and snakes since there's a lot of them around here.

If we wanted another vet we would have to take a 14 hour overnight boat trip to Aberdeen.

 

[AngieL]

The vet called today and......

He had done research!!!!

He called to ask me a few questions and I was impressed! He asked,

Age

weight

What are we supplementing with and how often

What insects does she eat

How are we gutloading them

He also asked about the swelling, how long has she had it, has it got worse or does it fluctuate. He spoke about hypervitaminosis A&E, organ failure and the probability of egg production.

He has advised me to not use the d3 and multivit and to take her out for some sun (I know you guys have said that already but still impressed at this guy ) He suggested upping her uvb light time but after I said we had it on for 12 hours a day he said that was fine but still try to get her out. He knew about metabolic bone disease and the causes.

I explained to him that Teal'c is not agreeable to handling, he said he understood that but we need to get her at least a little used to us handling her incase we do need to take her in to his office.

He said that the only reason he would want to do a blood test would be to check for kidney failure but doesn't think we need to do that yet. He knew that you couldn't get vitamin levels from blood.

He doesn't want to rush her in straight away because he still wants to do more research and he doesn't think it's anything to panic about just yet. Also he doesn't think there is need for an xray at this point. He said that since she is eating, drinking, pooping and is active that it doesn't sound like organ failure at the moment so he suggested that we wait 2 weeks and see if she shows sure signs of being gravid. I've got his mobile number and am to call him if anything happens. He's going to call next week to check in on us and see what's happening.

I know he's not an expert but he's all that we've got and I am so utterly plased that he has taken the time and interest to research for us

 

[Kate]

Jann we really would if we could

View attachment 60615

You see that group of islands at the top? That's us.

There's only one vets practice here (well they have 3 clinics dotted around) and the reptile guy has experience with beardies, geckos and snakes since there's a lot of them around here.

If we wanted another vet we would have to take a 14 hour overnight boat trip to Aberdeen.

And there isn't one in Aberdeen!

 

[Kate]

You sound happy with that Angie. I think that is the best you can do. I'm in a similar position here. It's good that he has done research, that's what mine did. Hopefully he will enjoy what he learns and becomes a reptile vet.

 

[AngieL]

Thanks Kate.

I do feel it's the best we can do yes. He is a reptile vet just hasn't seen a chameleon before. It's a great start though, he's asked all the right questions and I hope he'll find it interesting and want to learn more.

So meantime we are going to keep a close eye on the swelling, i think it's gone down to what it was before it got worse.

She's doing ok today, eating drinking and having showers. Wandering back and forth which I can only interpret as her looking for a place to lay.

 

[Kate]

Thanks Kate.

I do feel it's the best we can do yes. He is a reptile vet just hasn't seen a chameleon before. It's a great start though, he's asked all the right questions and I hope he'll find it interesting and want to learn more.

So meantime we are going to keep a close eye on the swelling, i think it's gone down to what it was before it got worse.

She's doing ok today, eating drinking and having showers. Wandering back and forth which I can only interpret as her looking for a place to lay.

That's good. Now you need to find a way to start handling her when she is better.