Are we breeding into sub-specie

[Jordan]

An Elephant is an uncheck prey item for a sabre tooth tiger. It did not fair well in the last ice age. Unchecked prey items like this are commonly associated with humans taking away their predators (snakes, wolves...) because of are fear of them. .

There is this one place in the Smokeys it is like a rest stop while you are in the park. It shows pictures of the mountains 100 years ago there was only on spot that was not clear cut. I go to this spot in the Smokeys often. The trees are over 300 years old it would take 15-20 adults hand to hand to wrap around this one tree. When I go their it feels like home and is the most beautiful place I have ever been in my life. I to am of indian decent located in those very mountains. When I go there I feel peace. Sometimes I wonder if people respect the animals they are trying to preserve or feel guilt out knowing that they die in our evolution. Perhaps the guilt is the only reason for alot of people to get involved with conservation efforts. I feel sorry for these people. They can never understand the true beauty in what they are saving. I had a large black bear pass me one day while at this spot in the woods at the begining of fall last year. We looked at each other. I could feel his presence and since of urgency that ran in him. I could tell he was trying to decide whether to attack. I could feel that cold adrenalin rush come over my body as I knew what could happen. That is why I respect the bear not feel pity for him. At probably 300 hundred pounds he could have riped me limb from limb. I could have gave a good chase as he was full of fat for winter. Death was almost certain based completely on him.

 

[Chris Anderson]

I regards to the comment I made of chameleons getting 20-30 year in the wild is a guess .... I made this comment in regards to them being a memeber of the iguanid family.

Haven't had a chance to read this thread through (i'll have to do so in a few days when I get home) but I wanted to clarify that chameleons are not in the Iguanid family, they are in a family of their own, Chamaeleonidae. Cladistically, chameleons are in the Iguania group but calling them Iguania for a lifespan comparison is similar to calling Birds (Aves) Coelurosauria and comparing them to the Tyrannosauroidea (Tyrannosaurus rex) for a longevity estimate. In fact, phylogenetically, chameleons are more closely related to Agamids then Iguanids but regardless, the comparison is of no use toward understanding longevity.

Also, C. parsonii are known to live upwards of 20 years but this is considered to be the upper end of chameleon longevity.

Chris

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Joye Kilmer National Forest, right? Old growth Liriodendron (tulip poplar). Gotta get up there some time. Probably this fall, since I'll be moving to Henderson County, NC in two weeks. Just near Asheville. Right in the Blue Ridge mountains. It's amazing, when you see those old, 100 year old oaks - and you realize that they are NEW growth! You see old growth, and you are amazed.

The thing is, there's not much old growth - what wasn't cut down was chestnut, and that fell down.

The closest I feel to nature is when I'm in a treestand int he middle of winter, freezing my rear off. Been there three years in a row, haven't seen a deer while up there. still, it's awesome. Your senses are so sharp when your hunting - the experience is incredible enough without even getting a chance to make a kill. You feel like you're directly a part of nature when you immerse yourself into it like that.

I actually do conservation work as a biologist, doing endangered species surveys, and wetland deliniations - it's important work, but nothing gets you closer to nature than stepping in as a predator.

 

[Sean]

This thread has gone off in so many directions (all good I think). Going back to the first post, the moment a chameleon, or any other animal for that matter, comes under human care it ceases to be wild. It's just not logical that it could be, at least not unless it is released at a later date. This is not to say that natural instinct is erased. I had a 1 y/o male veiled, raised from the egg, escape his enclosure. Months passed by and winter set in. That year was an exceptionally harsh winter for this area (Central Florida) with temperatures below freezing at night and barely above 50 during the day, for three weeks straight. At this point I had written the poor fella off. Then, one late spring morning, I was out watering my garden and noticed something out of place up in the big oak tree out back, namely turquoise and yellow against the gray bark. As you can imagine, I dropped the hose, scampered up there, and fetched him immediately. He had survived one of the harshest winters I had ever experienced (and he as well) in my entire life living here. Let it be known to any novices reading this, that leaving your veiled chameleon outside when the temperature drops even close to 40 F is unadvisable to say the least. My point is, that a fourth generation CBB adult male veiled raised in captivity was able to survive through a harsh winter with, quite literally no rainfall for about seven months, so he obviously didn't lose his natural instincts. Right now I'm breeding panthers and jackson's, and personality definately plays into the traits I look for. It just makes good sense to me, to propagate chameleons that respond well to human interaction, if their being worked with
in captivity. When it comes to the vet question, it's hard for people who haven't lived on a farm (or had a large operation going) for an extended period of time, to grasp the hard decisions one has to make in regards to health issues that arise. I will always advise people to take their sick animals to the vet whenever possible. That being said, in times of desperation, humans are incredibly resourceful and sometimes great strides are made to the husbandry of chameleons in lieu of a tragic event. I'm not endorsing breeders to never take their animals to the vet, just trying to help others understand the blood, sweat and tears that go into a successful breeding operation that ultimately is about the preservation of a species. Ironically, panther chameleons have enjoyed much success due to human development so far, because, they are most commonly found in degraded areas on the outskirts of agricultural land where sunlight and insects flourish. Although their numbers are good now, future land degradation for agriculture and charcoal is the real problem in Madagascar, and that's why we do what we do, at least those of us with honor. Which brings me to my next point, the whole rainbow panther debacle. In my opinion, the whole no breeding between panther locales theory is rife with pitfalls. By only breeding animals from the same locale, you do not expand the gene pool, you shrink it, and this is detrimental to the species as a whole. You also run the risk (however slim) of inbreeding with fresh imports. Think about it, if a breeder goes to an importer and cherry-picks specimens with certain traits, then goes back next year to get new blood, but is looking for the same traits for continuity, then it becomes yet another step down towards limiting the gene pool. Not to mention unscrupulous importers and collectors gathering specimens from within the same area of the locale. We would all like to think they move to a new area each year, but I doubt it. More than likely, they just go to where ever specimens are most abundant. Don't get me wrong, I fully understand that breeders and consumers alike want to know what colors their chameleon will turn out to be, but by and large I see it as just another marketing ploy to monopolize certain color phases and that does absolutely nothing for the general well-being of the species.

 

[studiocham]

let's get back to the real topic, are we breeding into to seperate breeds? Vields have for the most part been a solely captive specie for what 6 or 8 generations at least? We are breeding for color, size, and heartiness already why not breed for resistance to MBD, or respitory infection?

This is an aspect of cham keeping that I think about a great deal, and I see certain directions that other companion animals have gone in, repeating in chameleons. (As for whether or not to go to the vet, breeder ethics, etc., people can see my philosophy from reading my site and the articles I co-authored on the Ezine.)

First, breeds and varieties are the result of artificial selection, but artificial selection does not automatically mean something is now a breed. People crossed animals to achieve ideals of function, behavioral aptitudes, and appearance. Domestication began as a function of necessity; people needed fiber, dairy, meat, labor, transport, hunting help, and protection.

Now we have technology that allows more people the free time to have hobbies and fancies; now we have the luxury to keep animals that don't "pay for themselves" with labor or necessary food/fiber.

There is a guppy fancy, a rat and mouse fancy, a guinea pig fancy, and so on. They have been artificially selected for many, many generations (many more than chameleons), but is it correct to call guppies domesticated? I would love to hear from a guppy fancier who can prove they are, because I would learn something. We certainly cannot say guppies are being domesticated for our food, can we?

I see problems in color breeding chameleons. Why? Because in other animals that are artificially selected for color, genetic problems dominate.

I suggest that to reduce (you can't entirely avoid) the occurrence of detrimental genetics, keepers should strive to breed "wild type" color chameleons and bred unrelateds for as long as they are imported. "Wild type" means, the naturally occurring morphs from the wild, not designer morphs that are achieved by keepers artificially selecting recessives. The wild types have stood up to the test of millions of years of natural selection, a much more stringent method than artificial selection. Wild types are, to be blunt, proven to be hardy, even in the face of the obstacles and dangers Nature throws at 'em.

Two artificial selection techniques used to get recessives to express are inbreeding (sibling to sibling, parent to offspring, half-sib to half-sib) and line breeding (grandparent to grandchild, cousin to cousin, aunt/uncle to nephew/niece). When you aim to get designer colors to express in captive offspring, you also get all the linked recessive traits with it. Some of these traits that have piggybacked with the colors humans desire for novelty in other animals are: destructive or otherwise aberrant behavior, seizures, lethal (no surviving young), organ disorders, skeletal problems, deafness, prone to skin cancers, breathing problems, etc. A quick read into livestock breeding texts, serious dog breed books will show that even after centuries of domestication, people still can not solve the health problems that they brought into expression.

To hope or suggest that people could selectively breed chameleons to correct/minimize health problems that are known to be results of forcing a wild animal to conform to captive life... is a bit idealistic and very uninformed (sorry! just sayin'). It is far more likely that humans breeding *away from* wild types will bring about more and worse maladies in captive chameleon stock.

Another point that nobody likes to hear is "culling". If you breed for quality and fitness, eventually you have to say "no" to the animals that are inferior. Not inferior because they aren't the groovy new recessive color you wanted, which is artificial selection, but inferior because they can't naturally slip the egg without being cut out. This means one can't sell those babies because they died in the egg, and nobody likes losing money on their investment. The intent behind the cull is what must be analyzed. Again, wild type animals went through scads of generations that were selected by nature; if they could slip the egg and climb out of the earth, they passed the first culling. It is hobby practice to make it that much easier on these neonates by digging up the eggs so they don't have to dig out; if they can't cut their own way out, they are definitely not fit.

For a breed to be formally recognized, is must establish a standard of phenotype. Animals have to adhere to the standard or be denied being called and accepted as that breed ("registration"). The way one gets stock to adhere to a standard is by- ta-daaaah!- inbreeding and linebreeding, both the beginning and throughout the course of the breed's existence. (Breeds of animals have fallen from favor and gone extinct.) This "sets" a phenotype ridiculously faster than natural selection.

The question, "Are we creating breeds of chameleons?"

My answer, "No, not yet, and I hope it never happens." These SPECIES need to be preserved before we start tinkering around and end up with a bunch of unfit novelties that bear no resemblance to the original wild animals.

There are some recessive cham colors being bred for novelty, with no solid proof of whether or not the animals are still "fit". If breeders try to tell you they know everything about a new morph, consider that humans are still learning about all the problems they created (and still perpetuate) in long-domesticated color breeds of other animals. There's an old saying, "Don't buy from the breeder who says he/she knows it all."

Apologies to breeders of livebearers for my oviparous-centric language, but my point should be evident nonetheless.

Kristina Francis
http://www.melleridiscovery.com/

 

[LunaC]

Wonderfully stated, Kristina.

 

[Jordan]

This is a site you can look into if you own your own home, perhaps at school to. You can get a certification for creating backyard habitats and also has an on-line planner. I am going to help my mother create one of these in her backyard next spring for turtles and frogs. She likes the thought of having the turtles out on logs basking during the day. With the way the backyard is already, a pond will fit in nicely.
www.nwf.com

 

[Prism Chameleons]

Well said and done Kristina. I totally agree. This is why I have made Prism Chameleons with the philosophy that I will never crossbreed or interbreed. I feel very strongly about keeping nature as it was intended in their natural habitats, for if we don't, we lose the natural wonder of geographical coloration differences that have been on the island of Madagascar for thousands of years (in regard to panther chameleons). If breeders continually crossbreed across locales, we'd get a mishmash of hybrids and lose the purity of their fascinating differences dependent upon geographical location.

Interbreeding I also feel very strongly against. I have had people tell me that it happens in the wild all the time, and I'm sure that it does on some occasions. But, the deliberate breeding of sisters, brothers, fathers, mothers, cousins, and so on can end up causing genetic defects. We see this in humans, which is why we don't marry our family members. The last thing I want to see is a genetically deformed chameleon created directly due to a continual interbreeding. Makes me shiver. This is a practice I will never, ever do.

I want to preserve their individuality and uniqueness as it is in the wild. Captive breeding wild caughts and preserving their natural states serves two purposes:

1) Prevents possible instinction of the species. This is especially important since panther chameleons only reside on one island in the entire world. Deforestation and the possibility of a paramount disease wiping out the entire species could end up causing instinction of the entire species. By captive breeding wild caughts and preserving them in their natural states, we can prevent the instinction of the species. This is important for all species in the world. There are many types of reptiles, animals, amphibians, etc., that are illegal to obtain around the world. This prevents breeders and/or scientists of a particular species from being able to preserve a particular species. Look at all the animals and reptiles that are distinctly and uniquely only found in one place in the world - Madagascar. What happens to all those species we are unable to captive breed if a massive epidemic or plague was sent throughout the island? What happens to those species who are only found in one area if a massive fire destroyed them and their habitats? We would lose some of the most precious and unique animals in the world.

2) Prevents interbreeding of the number of panther chameleons already in captivity. If we stopped bringing in new blood on a controlled basis, ultimately we could end up with all panther chameleons being related to each other (I know this would take years, but it is still possible).

Preserving nature and not playing with nature is what I believe in. I know others may disagree who are in the business and I know I have seen some beautiful hybrids out there too. That happens even if unintended. Female panther chameleons are impossible to tell the difference across locales - they all look the same no matter where they are located. Females can get mixed up during importation or easily mixed up by a breeder if not carefully labeled. These types of things we cannot help. But the deliberate crossbreeding to come up with a "new color morph" for the direct purpose of making money is something I will never practice.

Interesting thread....

 

[ClmbrJ]

Wow! too much to respond to!

thanks everyone for posting up, this has proved to be way more interesting than I thought. A lot of it has gone off into tagents I must admit I haven't done enough research to comment on.

But I think I do have something to add.

I think humans today try to exibit too much control over any and every thing they can. To me, tkaing in an orphan is in a way giving back, once that orphan is well it should be on it's way if possible. While in my care I will give as much care as I can, but, the farm example is a great one. Taking Jet to the vet may mean Marley doesn't get his flea protection, which could lead to other problems. It is all give and take, perhaps people might say not to take it on in the first place , I would say...if you are better qualified show your commentment by coming to pick him up, you may have him.

I don't try to control the situation, what happens (to a fair extent) happens. I do not believe in most chemicals and medicines and try my best to avoid them. Now, I don't make my own soap or anything, but no caffine, asprin, flu shot, etc; My daughter has an exemption from booster shots .....see where I am going with this?

We can't help but to impact this planet, and we know we are special. But we are not special because we were "made in the mold of god" all creatures fit that mold. We are special because we have an awareness of our surroundings and our ability to make choices. Our specialness does not give us permision to breed for a trait, cut down trees so we have an EXCESS of foods, overpopulate the planet, design drugs to battle agaisnt nature's way. We are not in control! The life and death descions on this planet are not ours to make or even influence. Breeding for a white cham IS most assuredly a life or death desicsion.

If my daughter gets sick am I going to take her to a doctor? Well, yes eventually but only as a last resort. Then again she hasn't had so much as a sniffle since she was 2, The only kid I know who hasn't been sick in three and a half years, never had a immunazation shot.

On the other hand I do wash my dogs with flea shampoo, dust my chams feeders, and take my own vitamins etc.

In the end I am searching for the balance, between what I take from this planet, and what I re-plant, and everyone has to define his own scale.

-J

 

[Eric Adrignola]

inbreeding/interbreeding happens in nature all the time - it's inevitable in small populations, and when you have a few founder individuals (nearly any island species).

the difference is in nature, you have natural selection. No matter how badly inbred the animls may be bred, they will be under constant pressure from selective forces.

Despite coming from just a few dozen individuals at best, the wild jacksonii in hawaii are probably healtheir than the captive populations of calyptratus!

in the wild, few, if any individuals per clutch make it to adulthood, and few of them reproduce. in captivity, this is not the case.

Despite the higher incidence of recessive, deleterious genes in inbred populations, the process of natural selecton will eventually remove most "bad stuff".

In captivity, with diverse, unrelated stock. Poor breeding practices will result in lots of "Bad stuff" becoming common.

INBRED captive animals are even worse!