Are waterfalls really that bad?

[salty dog]

I use a backpack 4 gallon sprayer and water every other day works perfect for me, no bullshit

 

[jamest0o0]

Well ya near streams is what Madcham said too. However I think how close to the stream is the real question.

If the chams wanted to be feet away from the water, in riparian zones they would, they dont according to madcham, and putting it in the cage creates a riparian zone so not really the same thing.

As to the 15ft cages. I wouldn't be against that one bit for species that would appreciate it.

I have seen images of Mellers up high like that. I am not sure about parsonii parsonii. cristifers from all accounts I have seen, are found head height, or a tad more.

I have seen panthers high up in florida, but the Malagasy footage has them always at head height as well.

Carpets and Minors, are found below 5 ft usually in shrubs, more so than trees.

So all species I keep or intend to keep, are not really found at 15ft, so for me a 6ft cage top would be fine. Thats not to say they don't or can't go higher. Just that from what I have seen those species don't much.


For people that do keep 15ft high most times species thats not very practical.

At the end of the day, I don't think the waterfall serves purpose, does add danger, isn't very natural to be that close.

Waterfalls are cool, I agree to that. We like waterfalls, so setup a large cage between the chams cage. With a large waterfall, and fill it with frogs that do live in that riparian zone.

The rivers that parsons are near will be littered with Reed Frogs. So wanting a waterfall justify making a huge reed frog viv next to the parsons viv lol.

If there is only 1 piece of screen separating the 2. The chameleon will get all the hunidity and cool breeze from the waterfall, without being able to interact with the water. The frogs will be another cool pet, and will utilize the water.

I'm not disagreeing with much of what you're saying other than it is unnatural. Sure it's not necessary, but if someone really wants to put in the work, why not? There are tons of other unnatural things do like foam walls(our chams don't live in caves lol). A lot of what we do is for good aesthetics and as long as it's safe I see no issue with it. Infact, Id love to see someone do it the way I mentioned, would be sweet! And if we scale it down, like we do with most stuff in our enclosure, it wouldn't be that much different than a cham being 10/20? feet away from a large stream in the wild. Think about it, a tiny 1g or so volume water feature vs uhh hundreds of gallons in a large stream? It would be ridiculous to say it's unnatural for a cham to be near water, especially a rainforest species. I'm sure madcham isnt counting puddles that are probably the size of what our water feature would be, and I bet there are puddles everywhere. Especially during rainy season.

 

[cyberlocc]

I'm not disagreeing with much of what you're saying other than it is unnatural. Sure it's not necessary, but if someone really wants to put in the work, why not? There are tons of other unnatural things do like foam walls(our chams don't live in caves lol). A lot of what we do is for good aesthetics and as long as it's safe I see no issue with it. Infact, Id love to see someone do it the way I mentioned, would be sweet! And if we scale it down, like we do with most stuff in our enclosure, it wouldn't be that much different than a cham being 10/20? feet away from a large stream in the wild. Think about it, a tiny 1g or so volume water feature vs uhh hundreds of gallons in a large stream? It would be ridiculous to say it's unnatural for a cham to be near water, especially a rainforest species. I'm sure madcham isnt counting puddles that are probably the size of what our water feature would be, and I bet there are puddles everywhere. Especially during rainy season.

Well for 1 there is no large rivers that cross paths with Chams. From what I have seen looking at the maps. There is no "Named" rivers, ponds or Streams where the chams are found, from the data we have. If someone has seen a parsons, near a Named river, I would love to know.

My point is the rivers they are found by, are probably more akin to puddles. 1-3ft wide 6 inch deep small run off streams. We are not talking big bodies of water. From what I have seen, but I would love to see if that is incorrect.


As to the Foam stuff, I 100% agree. Completely and totally unnatural. We stole that technique from the froggers. The idea from them is not a Cave, but rather a dip in the dirt. Think like, a tree fell over, and left a hole of sorts where its root system was. This is also why they use those cocofiber vines. In no way do those vines look like Lianas, they do look like roots though. Which for the froggers is really the intention or was when it started.

That is frog habitat, a dip in the dirt where the water runs into, and has little caves and puddles as its deep enough to have clay soil, that will hold the water. That is a natural recreation of their environment.

I think that is unnatural for folks to use for Chameleons too. I don't do that for chams. If you recall, my large viv has Cork Panels as the background, not foam. If I were to do a Foam background, it would have been under 100 dollars, I went out of my way (and budget) to not do that, and instead spent 350 on the cork tiles.

I am not saying that everyone has to be a crazy person like me. And recreste exact environments as best as possible, only use native plants, ect. They don't. However thats what I like, and what I do.

It hasn't stopped with only the Malagasy Biome Project either. I am actually getting even worse about it. As we were talking about the other day. In all the breeding cages, for multiple species I am in the process of doing. Every single one, will only have plants found in their range. Before with the biome it was just madagascar plants, I am getting strict even more, to the plant must be found with the animal. Then, when I sell clippings of said plant, or when I publish my plant list (soon) that has Malagasy Plants found in the hobby. It will also specify what species the plants are found with.

I said that on another post earlier. People all the time complain about "my plant died, too much water, how do you keep them alive" its easy to keep them alive. Stop trying to use whatever plants you want, and match the plants to the animal (Do not have to be as extreme as me, but at least match biotypes)

We do this somewhat, there is 4 variants of pothos found in the areas or all malagasy chameleons (well commonly kept ones). Its not golden pothos but thats okay for less crazy people then me.

We are always trying to put the plants where we want them, stick plants that don't belong, stick pots on walls, for plants that dont grow like that (If they did, then mount them, just like I do, my birds nest ferns are not planted in pots on the walls, they are sitting on large pieces of wood that they have attached to, like they naturally would) ect. That's not how things should be done. Put the plants where they want to be, and they will stop dying. Stop telling the plant where your going to grow it. And listen to where the plant wants to be.

Plants have it worse then animals. People just flat out ignore what the plants needs are, how it grows in the wild and thrives, and then complain when it dies due to improper care. Its so much easier to just give them what they want. If they are epipythes, then mount them. If they grow parasitically high on trees, then mount them high. If they are under story plants, plant them on the floor, if they are vines, plant them low and let them grow, like they would in the wild. It will take a little time, and that sucks, so buy a bigger one or wait.

Sorry now you got me ranting lol.