are chameleons "dumb" ?
- Thread starter wontbme
- Start date
eisentrauti
Avid Member
The idea of "intelligent design" failed here massively
Hoj
Friendly Grasshopper
i was just being fun sarcastic, i do not belive they have heat sensors in their lower side.
Hoj
Friendly Grasshopper
just a fyi i believe that they flatten out to provide more area of exposure to the sun, but u are correct they do not have heat sensors on their under side.
eisentrauti
Avid Member
Hoj
Friendly Grasshopper
what!!!! they can sence heat from abouve i believe
fluxlizard
Avid Member
meh- I don't think this is correct.
The problem isn't the distance or the "heat sensors".
Lizards are trying to warm their core temperature, not just the skin. It takes much longer for heat to penetrate to the center of the lizard than it does to penetrate the skin and outer muscle. In nature, direct sunlight uses radiation that penetrates through the skin and muscle to warm the lizard into it's core- it doesn't burn the lizard before it heats the lizard deep inside. Lizards thermostat checks the core temperature, not the skin temperature.
Sooo- that in mind- now let's imagine you live in a home where room temperature is about 70. Your lizard decides it wants to warm it's core temperature to about 85. You have a well ventilated chameleon enclosure which doesn't trap and build heat. Furthermore, you provide a 40 watt heat light (or maybe 60). Because of the ventilation, the heat from the bulb rapidly disperses into the surrounding air. Because the bulb is fairly low wattage, it doesn't put out a lot of heat to begin with, which means it's effective heating radius is even smaller. Because of the rapid dissipation of the heat from the bulb- a foot away it may only be slightly above room temperature. Even 10" away it may not be very warm yet. But- 6" from the bulb it may be very hot. Hot enough to warm the skin of the lizard very rapidly, before the core warms. Which is how the lizard ends up burned. It is waiting patiently for it's core to warm and it's internal thermostat to tell it that it is time to move, but the heat from the low watt light in a cold room doesn't work the same way as the sun, warming the entire environment and penetrating the lizard to the core and it's system can't deal with the artificial demand. In extreme cases, the heat may be hot enough to burn the surface of the lizard and take practically forever to heat to the core of the lizard. This is how a lot of the old hot rock burns happened. Cold room, hot rock with non-penetrating heat (sun penetrates with infrared heat). Cold lizard must warm it's core- only choice - the hot rock. Sits and waits while it's outside cooks and inside fails to warm.
So, the solution-
More heat, possibly farther away so it warms the cage a bit and not only the basking area. Then the lizard's core will heat as it moves in the secondary warmth and breathes it. This can also be accomplished with secondary heat bulbs so you are still using low wattage heat bulbs, but now the air surrounding the basking site is warmed because several inches away is another basking area and so forth. And lots of branches at various distances from the heat source, but still within the warming zone. Now the lizard has lots of options, and can choose something besides freeze or burn the outside to warm the core. Note that heating the area around the basking area does not mean that you have to heat the entire enclosure and give up a thermal gradient from cool to hot- lizards just need a large warm area with warm air and lots of options along with the cooler area. If this is accomplished by the owner, the distance from the bulb is really irrelevant because in a properly designed environment the lizard won't stick around in burn distance long enough to burn.
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DavidBuchan
New Member
Of course they would feel pain, they just don't feel heat so well there. Heat and pain are not the same thing.
P.s. to others- the intelligent design 'argument' falls down in its nomenclature
, but there is no need to look for evidence, since it is more removed from science than poetry is
DavidBuchan
New Member
Plus what Fluxlizard said. I meant to say all that too
fluxlizard
Avid Member
Oh- back the original question about pain- I think they do feel it, or at least discomfort, but don't interpret the signal as a demand to move away from the heat to do something about it. After all, in nature, moving away from solar radiation before their core temperature is warmed is never the solution to avoid pain because it never happens in nature. They would only exceed safe temperature after their core is warmed and at that point they would seek shelter...
Oh, and for who is dumb- I dunno, chameleons in nature do what they do wandering around in beautiful natural surroundings eating when they find food, mating when they find a willing partner, and breathing and taking it all in and appear satisfied with life. On the other hand humans have been told that we have to have a lot of stuff and a lot of money to get that stuff to be satisfied. As a result we tend to keep our heads down, spend our lives running about trying to "earn" money to trade for food and trade for lots of stuff and constantly analyzing the value of stuff and each other and ourselves and most of us rarely take the time to enjoy our natural surroundings and take in what chameleons take in every day... So who is smarter?
Oh, and for who is dumb- I dunno, chameleons in nature do what they do wandering around in beautiful natural surroundings eating when they find food, mating when they find a willing partner, and breathing and taking it all in and appear satisfied with life. On the other hand humans have been told that we have to have a lot of stuff and a lot of money to get that stuff to be satisfied. As a result we tend to keep our heads down, spend our lives running about trying to "earn" money to trade for food and trade for lots of stuff and constantly analyzing the value of stuff and each other and ourselves and most of us rarely take the time to enjoy our natural surroundings and take in what chameleons take in every day... So who is smarter?
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allencg101
Member
my chams are very smart. they know when its time to eat and go to bed. el grumpo knows that his door opens out and he tries to push it open both the main door and the little door at the bottom same with my oust mighty moe!!! I don't think they are dumb at all. i think they are very intellegent.
DavidBuchan
New Member
We are smarter - or the Chameleons would be online discussing how best to look after us
.......Chams tend to keep their heads down and spend a lot of time getting hold of food, be we do it in more comfort and style (at least the fortunate amongst our species, the ones who can afford to look after Chameleons )
Jimturner
Established Member
Lateral basking! We've all seen photos of flattened disk shaped chams showing a darkened side to the morning sun... In nature the sun isn't @ high noon for all that long. The way we place our lights really effects the way that our chams receive heat. Lights shining directly down from "high noon" isn't the most efficient way to warm them. Placing your basking lamp on an angle will enable your cham to bask in a more natural fashion by allowing it to flatten and receive heat from the side, a much larger surface area than their spines, just as in nature. This will help them to bask efficiently, reduce the time spent basking and greatly reduce the chance of burning. Some-where summoner12 has a great diagram illustrating this. Cheers!
PraxRX7
New Member
frogs
i like to think of it as being similar to putting a frog in boiling water.
A frog will try to escape boiling water because the temperature change is immediate. If you place a frog in room temp water and then gradually boil it the frog will not notice and will die without freaking out.
I think its the same...immediate change and the cham would move...gradual overheating to burning would only occur i the heat is hitting a non sensitive area suh as the bottom of their bodies while the top part (which is naturally exposed more often to the sun) has the required reactivness to tell the chameleon to cool down if it gradually gets too hot.
could be wrong...just my take on it.
i like to think of it as being similar to putting a frog in boiling water.
A frog will try to escape boiling water because the temperature change is immediate. If you place a frog in room temp water and then gradually boil it the frog will not notice and will die without freaking out.
I think its the same...immediate change and the cham would move...gradual overheating to burning would only occur i the heat is hitting a non sensitive area suh as the bottom of their bodies while the top part (which is naturally exposed more often to the sun) has the required reactivness to tell the chameleon to cool down if it gradually gets too hot.
could be wrong...just my take on it.
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