Am I going crazy?

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Alright guys it's been a long time since I have posted and I really wish my return wasn't through the health clinic though. I have been chatting with ferretinmyshoes over the past month involving a tongue issue with Thalin that seems to not get any better and it's been going on for a few months now. I decided while I waited for her to reply I would get some second opinions. So let's begin:

Chameleon Info:
  • Your Chameleon -
He will be 2 years old in April, one of the 'great grands' veiled and has been with me since he was 3-4 months old
  • Handling -
Pretty much never, he has been handled once within the past few months and that was for shipping.
  • Feeding -
Roaches, hornworms, superworms, butterworms, sometimes crickets, all well gut loaded with fruits and veggies. I offer him tons but I haven't seen him eat in several weeks.
  • Supplements -
Rep-Cal herptivite, Rep-Cal Calcium no d3, Rep-Cal Calcium w/ d3
No d3 is offered every day except Fridays when I offer and alternate between herptivite and w/ d3
  • Watering -
Misting till enclosure is fully soaked down then repeat every few hours, has a dripper going through out the day as well.
  • Fecal Description -
I haven't seen a fecal in a while but what I have seen has been solid and very very small, white urates
  • History -
When he was 9 months or so he was treated for parasites using Panacur though no parasites were ever actually diagnosed. I just recently moved from Alaska to Colorado and Thalin was shipped down to me after I settled in probably almost two weeks ago. Cage has been covered so he can adjust to the new place except for feeding offerings and misting. He has been shedding since he arrived (pretty sure he is going through a second full body shed right now which started right after the first).

Cage Info:
  • Cage Type -
The almighty Reptibreeze 24x24x48, has three sides covered to keep water from hitting the wall and to keep humidity up.
  • Lighting -
UVB- Reptisun 5.0 18" brand new bulb, put it in just before Thalin arrived
Basking: Just your basic heat bulb from home depot 250w on a dimmer
  • Temperature -
Lately it's run lower 90's in the basking spot and lower 70's on the bottom
  • Humidity -
Humidity stays steady in the 40's and spikes to around 70% when misting. I measure both temp and humidity on a digital thermo/hydrometer from Walmart.
  • Plants -
I have no live currently. Waiting for the spring to bring out awesome selection at the local nurseries.
  • Placement -
He is in my room kinda tucked into his own little reptile corner, very little traffic as door is always closed. If anything it's just me and my dog jazz that he sees so not a new sight.
  • Location -
Northern Colorado

Current Problem -
Alright for the past few months Thalin has not been good with his tongue. When he goes to shoot at a food item he seems to overthink it by tilting his head in all directions poised and ready to roll but doesn't actually shoot till a while later. When he does he usually misses. So he tries again and repeats the process then eventually gets so defeated by missing so many times he just gives up. For example in a feeding I may offer a bowl of 4 superworms and after 6 shots he only get 1 worm and gives up. His tongue also doesn't seem as sticky, many times he may get an item but then it drops before he gets it to his mouth. Sometimes he lunges forward like he will just munch it but still try to use his tongue and closes his eyes.
Yesterday I offered a roach on the screen and he tried hard, you could see he really really wanted it but he just couldn't get it even when he was only an inch away (He licked it trying to get it) he eventually gave up a sulked away. I worry as I haven't seen him eat since he arrived here and he looks to be getting skinny. I know he is hungry, I just can't figure out why he can't snatch up his food even if it's in a bowl. I also noticed he may have discoloration on his chin (possibly butterworm?) and either has a mass on his chest/gular region or is so skinny his hyoid bone sticks out. I am worried, what do you guys think is going on and what should I do?

I have half a mind to take him to Dayna but she is about 2 hours away and I don't want to stress him.
 

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jajeanpierre

Chameleon Enthusiast
View attachment 151471 View attachment 151471 Alright guys it's been a long time since I have posted and I really wish my return wasn't through the health clinic though. I have been chatting with ferretinmyshoes over the past month involving a tongue issue with Thalin that seems to not get any better and it's been going on for a few months now. I decided while I waited for her to reply I would get some second opinions. So let's begin:

Chameleon Info:



    • Your Chameleon -
He will be 2 years old in April, one of the 'great grands' veiled and has been with me since he was 3-4 months old



    • Handling -
Pretty much never, he has been handled once within the past few months and that was for shipping.



    • Feeding -
Roaches, hornworms, superworms, butterworms, sometimes crickets, all well gut loaded with fruits and veggies. I offer him tons but I haven't seen him eat in several weeks.



    • Supplements -
Rep-Cal herptivite, Rep-Cal Calcium no d3, Rep-Cal Calcium w/ d3
No d3 is offered every day except Fridays when I offer and alternate between herptivite and w/ d3



    • Watering -
Misting till enclosure is fully soaked down then repeat every few hours, has a dripper going through out the day as well.



    • Fecal Description -
I haven't seen a fecal in a while but what I have seen has been solid and very very small, white urates



    • History -
When he was 9 months or so he was treated for parasites using Panacur though no parasites were ever actually diagnosed. I just recently moved from Alaska to Colorado and Thalin was shipped down to me after I settled in probably almost two weeks ago. Cage has been covered so he can adjust to the new place except for feeding offerings and misting. He has been shedding since he arrived (pretty sure he is going through a second full body shed right now which started right after the first).

Cage Info:



    • Cage Type -
The almighty Reptibreeze 24x24x48, has three sides covered to keep water from hitting the wall and to keep humidity up.



    • Lighting -
UVB- Reptisun 5.0 18" brand new bulb, put it in just before Thalin arrived
Basking: Just your basic heat bulb from home depot 250w on a dimmer



    • Temperature -
Lately it's run lower 90's in the basking spot and lower 70's on the bottom



    • Humidity -
Humidity stays steady in the 40's and spikes to around 70% when misting. I measure both temp and humidity on a digital thermo/hydrometer from Walmart.



    • Plants -
I have no live currently. Waiting for the spring to bring out awesome selection at the local nurseries.



    • Placement -
He is in my room kinda tucked into his own little reptile corner, very little traffic as door is always closed. If anything it's just me and my dog jazz that he sees so not a new sight.



    • Location -
Northern Colorado

Current Problem -
Alright for the past few months Thalin has not been good with his tongue. When he goes to shoot at a food item he seems to overthink it by tilting his head in all directions poised and ready to roll but doesn't actually shoot till a while later. When he does he usually misses. So he tries again and repeats the process then eventually gets so defeated by missing so many times he just gives up. For example in a feeding I may offer a bowl of 4 superworms and after 6 shots he only get 1 worm and gives up. His tongue also doesn't seem as sticky, many times he may get an item but then it drops before he gets it to his mouth. Sometimes he lunges forward like he will just munch it but still try to use his tongue and closes his eyes.
Yesterday I offered a roach on the screen and he tried hard, you could see he really really wanted it but he just couldn't get it even when he was only an inch away (He licked it trying to get it) he eventually gave up a sulked away. I worry as I haven't seen him eat since he arrived here and he looks to be getting skinny. I know he is hungry, I just can't figure out why he can't snatch up his food even if it's in a bowl. I also noticed he may have discoloration on his chin (possibly butterworm?) and either has a mass on his chest/gular region or is so skinny his hyoid bone sticks out. I am worried, what do you guys think is going on and what should I do?

I have half a mind to take him to Dayna but she is about 2 hours away and I don't want to stress him.
I would take him to Dayna in a heartbeat. Two hours is not all that long a drive for a chameleon expert, especially since she has given you so much of her time already. My vet is an hour away if there isn't' any traffic, more than two hours with traffic. I'll make that trek for fecals. If he is properly packed in a dark container, he'll just shut right down as if it is night.

When you pack him up, put him in something like a shoe box with twisted paper towels that are packed in so they don't move but give him something to grab onto. Tape the box up! You do not want to accidentally drop him in the vet's office and have someone's dog snatch him up. Or, heaven forbid, you have a car accident and the box comes apart. In a cardboard shoe box you won't need holes. A hot water bottle outside the box will keep him warm. I'm always worried about overheating, not chilling, so you might put one of those digital thermometers in the box so you can read it. I take mine to the vet in those little totes that are a little smaller than a shoe box but higher. I drill holes in them on the side. I put everything in a dark cloth bag and throw a dark towel over the everything so they are in the dark. They shut right down and aren't stressed at all by the travel. I tie the bag shut and put the seat belt around everything.

If you are bringing a fecal, make sure it is fresh. Put it in a plastic bag in the fridge until you are ready to go. I bag fecals in sandwich bags, then put it in another bag, wash my hands, and put everything in a grocery bag or two and only then do I feel safe to put it in the fridge.
 
I would take him to Dayna in a heartbeat. Two hours is not all that long a drive for a chameleon expert, especially since she has given you so much of her time already. My vet is an hour away if there isn't' any traffic, more than two hours with traffic. I'll make that trek for fecals. If he is properly packed in a dark container, he'll just shut right down as if it is night.

When you pack him up, put him in something like a shoe box with twisted paper towels that are packed in so they don't move but give him something to grab onto. Tape the box up! You do not want to accidentally drop him in the vet's office and have someone's dog snatch him up. Or, heaven forbid, you have a car accident and the box comes apart. In a cardboard shoe box you won't need holes. A hot water bottle outside the box will keep him warm. I'm always worried about overheating, not chilling, so you might put one of those digital thermometers in the box so you can read it. I take mine to the vet in those little totes that are a little smaller than a shoe box but higher. I drill holes in them on the side. I put everything in a dark cloth bag and throw a dark towel over the everything so they are in the dark. They shut right down and aren't stressed at all by the travel. I tie the bag shut and put the seat belt around everything.

If you are bringing a fecal, make sure it is fresh. Put it in a plastic bag in the fridge until you are ready to go. I bag fecals in sandwich bags, then put it in another bag, wash my hands, and put everything in a grocery bag or two and only then do I feel safe to put it in the fridge.
Thank you for responding. I may see if my grandfather will take me down to her this weekend (he would know how to get there way better and I dont trust my gps haha)

I never worry so much about him after being packed up as he has a great track record with that. Its the getting him out of the enclosure that has always been difficult and stressful for him as he is a runner. But with any luck I can get him to go see her this weekend at the earliest.
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
How long have you had those cloth/material leaves in his cage?
He has a swelling under his throat/chest area...can you please post some photos of that end/half of him please.
What specifically do you feed/gutload the insects with?
 
How long have you had those cloth/material leaves in his cage?
He has a swelling under his throat/chest area...can you please post some photos of that end/half of him please.
What specifically do you feed/gutload the insects with?
Yes, the uvb is about...2 weeks old or so. Bought it brand new as well.

I have had the fabric style leaf garlland in his enclosure since a couple months before he my move down as I needed something temporary as a filler. When spring comes I will be taking them out and replacing with live plants. If I do take him to Dayna this weekend then I will do it even sooner and I will be removing them before I put him back in his enclosure.
I specifically gut load with, romaine lettuce, kale when it's around, mushrooms, banana, orange, carrot. Really any fruit or veggie I have in the house.

I took the best pictures I possibly could but he was sitting in the light kinda funny so the shadow falls on the area you wish to look at.
 

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kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
I need to see the swollen area from the side....sorry.
Did you wash the material plants before using them? I'm concerned about what might have been contained in the dyes and material and process of making the plants. Could be nothing...but you never know.
Banana, spinach, cabbage, and some other fruits and veggies I don't recommend. Greens such as collards, escarole, endive, dandelion greens, kale, etc and veggies such as carrots, sweet red pepper, squash, zucchini, sweet potato are all good. Romaine is good for moisture. I've seen the wrong choice of things fed or used to gutload the insects with cause edema before....but at the moment I'm not sure if it's edema or something else. I'm not a vet so whatever I say comes from experience or what I've learned from others along the way. Dayna is an excellent vet so I hope you can go there.
 
I have an appointment with ferret this sunday, I do look forward to meeting her but it's a very unfortunate circumstance. I hope she can help my little man out and we can get him healthy again.
 

jannb

Chameleon Enthusiast
I recommend you hand feed him at a very close range and let the tongue rest. I sure hope Dayna with be able to help Thalin.
 
I recommend you hand feed him at a very close range and let the tongue rest. I sure hope Dayna with be able to help Thalin.
We had been trying close range hand feeding. Wont lie it was really scary so I started cup feeding up close with a sturdy cup that he could sit on to dive in. No improvement so hoping she can help him out too. I dont like seeing my boy sick.

Gonna do a live plant shopping spree at a local nursery tomorrow. Hopefully they will help him recover too.
 
Update for you guys:

I made the 100 mile journey to see Dayna today with Thalin and he did very well. He weighed in at 186 grams and I am pretty sure surprised the whole staff with how friendly he was when it came to being handled as well as having vice grip foot strength. We arnt sure why his edema occurred so we are doing blood work which will supposedly be done by Wednesday.
When it gets back we will go from there.

100 miles back and I got his enclosure revamped as well as the new babies enclosure which is the smaller one in the first picture. All real plants and Thalin seems to like his new enclosure design.

I will be sure to update everyone once we get his blood results. And on a side note Dayna is awesome, such a fun sweet vet who knows her stuff. Took a ton of time with me to make sure all my questions were answered and that I understood what was going on.
 

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jannb

Chameleon Enthusiast
I am so glad that you took Thalin to see Dayna. I hope all goes well with his bloodwork. Was she able to do a fecal? I'll be keeping Thalin in my prayers and waiting to see the bloodwork results. a

I absolutely love Dayna. She is always willing to share her expert knowledge with me.
 
I am so glad that you took Thalin to see Dayna. I hope all goes well with his bloodwork. Was she able to do a fecal? I'll be keeping Thalin in my prayers and waiting to see the bloodwork results. a

I absolutely love Dayna. She is always willing to share her expert knowledge with me.
She was not able to get a fecal in as there has been little to none for a good while. However whenever I get a fresh sample I will take it in to school and do the fecal myself under my parasitology teachers supervision in case I find something so it gets done. I hope his blood work goes well too and look forward to knowing how he is internally. Thank you for keeping him in your prayers Jann, he and I both appreciate it.

Dayna is truly gifted, I hope the vet I work under is as caring about the patient and well hersed in their specific care as she is. I almost wish she didn't work so far away from where I am so I could see if I could do my private practice internship under her this summer and learn from a top notch exotic vet and staff (seriously even that staff was amazing with him. They knew their stuff and it really put me at ease.)
 
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