Alternative Horned Chow?

BECHARD4

Established Member
Good Morning,
Is there an alternative to using Horned Chow - specifically for hatchlings. I know you can use non horned chow for adults, but this be done the same for hatchlings? I just contacted my "feeder guy" and its $ 42.75 per lb. That seems to be a bit of a jump from the last time I purchased some.
Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you.
 

Multivitamins

Chameleon Enthusiast
Damn that's highway robbery I found some bags online cheap you mix it yourself but you'll need to wait on shipping in that case.

Not sure about the hatchings but I had some larger worms eating some of my gutload veggies in the few days before the Chow arrived. They seemed to like sweet potatoes just fine.

I feel like all they want to do is eat and won't be as fussy as we might imagine
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
silk worm chow. you can keep them "alive" with some carrots.

i hear they will also eat maple leaves.

from the interwebs
potatoe leaves
pepper leaves
moonflower leaves


https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/homemade-hornworm-chow.74471/


there is also the agar diet, but it only keeps a few days.

Whats the Agar Diet? Why not add preservatives?

Btw, All those plants you named.

potatoe leaves
pepper leaves
moonflower leaves

Are Solanaceae (Nightshade) just like Tomato, they produce and excrete Solanine, and Nicotine which is toxic to Chams.
Fun science lesson, Nicotine is in Tomatoes, Potatoes, Egg Plants, and Peppers :p as well.

You feed that stuff, and you make the Hornworm Toxic, could of just fed it Tomato, some say it isnt that bad and they feed tomato, and its fine. I haven't tried, and not sure I would risk it. Hornworms are immune chams not so much. Another fun fact, a drop of pure nicotine on a humans skin is enough to be fatal, it doesnt even have to be ingested, soaking into your skin can still kill you. Dont even need pure, the conctrate I buy for vaping is 100mg per ml, 1 ml (a drop) is enough to be fatal, and thats only 10% nicotine. I dilute the crap out of it, and keep it very high and am extremely careful any time I need to mess with it. 60mg is all it takes to kill a non smoker, a Cham is what 200th of our size.

Tobacco has the highest concentrate, but all Nightshade produces the Nicotine Alkaloid.
 
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nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
Whats the Agar Diet? Why not add preservatives?

Btw, All those plants you named.

potatoe leaves
pepper leaves
moonflower leaves

Are Solanaceae (Nightshade) just like Tomato, they produce and excrete Solanine, and Nicotine which is toxic to Chams.
Fun science lesson, Nicotine is in Tomatoes, Potatoes, Egg Plants, and Peppers :p as well.

You feed that stuff, and you make the Hornworm Toxic, could of just fed it Tomato, some say it isnt that bad and they feed tomato, and its fine. I haven't tried, and not sure I would risk it. Hornworms are immune chams not so much. Another fun fact, a drop of pure nicotine on a humans skin is enough to be fatal, it doesnt even have to be ingested, soaking into your skin can still kill you. Dont even need pure, the conctrate I buy for vaping is 100mg per ml, 1 ml (a drop) is enough to be fatal, and thats only 10% nicotine. I dilute the crap out of it, and keep it very high and am extremely careful any time I need to mess with it. 60mg is all it takes to kill a non smoker, a Cham is what 200th of our size.

Tobacco has the highest concentrate, but all Nightshade produces the Nicotine Alkaloid.

One cup of non-toasted wheat germ, 1/3 cup non-fat dry milk, 4 tablespoons agar, one teaspoon raw non-boiled linseed oil, 1/2 tablespoon nutritional flake yeast, one 1000 mg vitamin C tablet, two vitamin B tablets, two multivitamin tablets, one tablespoon sugar, 2.5 cups of water.

Place vitamin tablets in a blender and reduce to a powder. Add the wheat germ, powdered milk and sugar. Blend until well-mixed. Remove the dry mix. To the blender add 2.5 cups of boiling water. While set on a low speed, add the agar. Blend for one minute then add the dry mix and mix. Add the linseed oil, increase blender speed and mix well.

The stuff goes bad quickly, like apple slices quickly.

Yea im still not sure what you can feed then and still feed a chameleon. And yes i have also heard reports that you can feed hormworms tomato plants, and they are fine. I dont know if its a conspiracy to sell more hornworm chow.

Go head and eat a thorn apple, we might not see you tomorrow. Eat a tomato, ur fine.

At this point i have had people raise them on tobacco, then feed them red tomato for a few days, then eat them. Something about its the "gut load" that is bad, and they are not some magic worm that is sucking all the toxins from night shade and storing it in their flesh.

On the other had pothos are toxic, but vields eat them all the time.


You would think by now great lakes horn worms would have a faq...
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
One cup of non-toasted wheat germ, 1/3 cup non-fat dry milk, 4 tablespoons agar, one teaspoon raw non-boiled linseed oil, 1/2 tablespoon nutritional flake yeast, one 1000 mg vitamin C tablet, two vitamin B tablets, two multivitamin tablets, one tablespoon sugar, 2.5 cups of water.

Place vitamin tablets in a blender and reduce to a powder. Add the wheat germ, powdered milk and sugar. Blend until well-mixed. Remove the dry mix. To the blender add 2.5 cups of boiling water. While set on a low speed, add the agar. Blend for one minute then add the dry mix and mix. Add the linseed oil, increase blender speed and mix well.

The stuff goes bad quickly, like apple slices quickly.

Yea im still not sure what you can feed then and still feed a chameleon. And yes i have also heard reports that you can feed hormworms tomato plants, and they are fine. I dont know if its a conspiracy to sell more hornworm chow.

Go head and eat a thorn apple, we might not see you tomorrow. Eat a tomato, ur fine.

At this point i have had people raise them on tobacco, then feed them red tomato for a few days, then eat them. Something about its the "gut load" that is bad, and they are not some magic worm that is sucking all the toxins from night shade and storing it in their flesh.

On the other had pothos are toxic, but vields eat them all the time.


You would think by now great lakes horn worms would have a faq...


I think they expel the toxin some how. I believe, that Hornworms are of few insects that can eat Nightshade, as the Nicotine is a pesticide. However if they are immune to it, they must get rid of it or something some how, I don't know.

In the case of Pothos, it's just a calcium blocker, that's why it's Toxic, however Nightshade is drop dead toxic, even to humans. Even tomato leaves can be poision to humans, the fruits are fine, the leaves are not. Then again they say that, but people smoke tobacco, so who knows.
 

nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
I think they expel the toxin some how. I believe, that Hornworms are of few insects that can eat Nightshade, as the Nicotine is a pesticide. However if they are immune to it, they must get rid of it or something some how, I don't know.

In the case of Pothos, it's just a calcium blocker, that's why it's Toxic, however Nightshade is drop dead toxic, even to humans. Even tomato leaves can be poision to humans, the fruits are fine, the leaves are not. Then again they say that, but people smoke tobacco, so who knows.

How about we just dont feed them nightshade and stick with chow or diy artificial diet :)
 

BECHARD4

Established Member
Great Lakes Hornworms sells the dry chow for 2 pounds is $16, 4 pounds is $56 add USPS flat rate shipping and you are at a reasonable price.

CHEERS!

Nick

I will give them a try. I emailed Mulberry Farms, waiting for a shipping quote from them. Thank you.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
Hmm just seen a thread, saying there is 3 or more types of Hornworm, one of them eats grapevine. Why do we use the nightshade ones then?? We could easily feed grape leaves. Grapevines are easy to grow, shoot we have some in the backyard, that we never do anything too, it just gets bigger and bigger, every year. https://www.ozanimals.com/Insect/Vine-Hawk-Moth/Hippotion/celerio.html

Edit: 6 pounds of Grape Leaves, 55 bucks shipped, compared to 80 for 4 lbs of that chow. https://www.amazon.com/California-Grape-Leaves-Orlando-DR-WT/dp/B06XGX8JSP?th=1

I wonder if the tomato worms will eat the Grape Leaves.


Edit Again: some say they will, some say they wont. Ill have to watch my grape and see if I get some on their catch em and try tobreed some that do :). I a actually trying to grow a clipping of Grape Right now, for sticks cage I am hoping the sticks will eat it (read they might)
 
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nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
Hmm just seen a thread, saying there is 3 or more types of Hornworm, one of them eats grapevine. Why do we use the nightshade ones then?? We could easily feed grape leaves. Grapevines are easy to grow, shoot we have some in the backyard, that we never do anything too, it just gets bigger and bigger, every year. https://www.ozanimals.com/Insect/Vine-Hawk-Moth/Hippotion/celerio.html

Edit: 6 pounds of Grape Leaves, 55 bucks shipped, compared to 80 for 4 lbs of that chow. https://www.amazon.com/California-Grape-Leaves-Orlando-DR-WT/dp/B06XGX8JSP?th=1

I wonder if the tomato worms will eat the Grape Leaves.


Edit Again: some say they will, some say they wont. Ill have to watch my grape and see if I get some on their catch em and try tobreed some that do :). I a actually trying to grow a clipping of Grape Right now, for sticks cage I am hoping the sticks will eat it (read they might)

Most of that 6 pounds is water. vs the chow that is normally powdered.

1/2 pound chow to 2 3/4 cup of hot tap water . thats 1 3/8 pounds of water.
 
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