4 Oustelets Male or Female?

[Mmcbain1]

Ok I have 7 oustelets but I am only posting 4 here because 7 would be too many and if I can figure this out then I will be able to figure out the rest. I thought I did a descent amount of research but as far as sexing Oustelets The only information I was able to find is that females are typically green but may be brown and gray, and males are almost always brown and larger. Please let me know what you think and if possible explain to me how to sex my Oustelets. I think one of the factors that makes this more difficult is that the ages are not exact and they are all mostly 5-10 months of age. Thank you so Much!

First is Lily He or she? is 6-9 months old

here is photo 2 of the same chameleon

Now here is Five he or she is 6-9 months as well

and another picure of the same chameleon.

Now here is Gilda probably 7-10 months old he or she?

And a tail shot of the same chameleon

Lastly I am nearly certain this is a male just based on his size and color but I am posting him anyway age unknown name V

and tail base

 

[Mmcbain1]

Please let me know if more pictures would be useful or maybe there is a pro on the forum I can PM if anyone knows anything that would be helpful it would be extremely appreciated

 

[AngieL]

If you search for username 'Trace' she can probably help you. She's a moderator too and particularly good at identifying and sexing

 

[Mmcbain1]

I sent her a PM we'll see if she responds in the mean time if anyone else has any useful information please let me know.

 

[Trace]

Sorry it’s taken me so long to reply but I’ve been staring at these pics all day trying to make a decision. I’m not the Furcifer oustaleti expert by any stretch; I’ve never worked with this species. You are right the girls are generally more colourful (greens and reds) while the boys are typically brown. The males are larger and more robust and have a marked hemipenal bulge. That said due to the size of this species the females’ tail base is overall thicker in proportion so as you discover it's a little harder to sex the girls.

To hazard some guesses though I would say ‘Lily’ is a male due to colour and what looks to be a thicker tail base. ‘Five’ I suspect is female because of a lower casque, reddish colour and thinner tail base. ‘Gilda’ is a female again because of colour and casque size. ‘V’ is a male like you suspect.

There are a few other folks (Chris Anderson, Kent67 in particular) who are good at sexing and I’m sure they will see this thread when they get back from holidays and confirm or deny my ideas.

You’ve got a nice healthy looking group there! Well done. What are their origins? I noticed you are in FL are these some of those feral ousties?

Cheers!
Trace

 

[Mmcbain1]

Wow Trace thank you so much for your post and detailed explanation I really do appreciate it and will be excited to see Kent and Chris Andersons opinion also. Do you think it would be helpful if I put up more pictures? Maybe a side view tailbase? And yes these are wild caught in Florida they were given to me by a friend who has contacts with a group trying to eradicate them . Thats why I took all 7 and I am actually looking for homes for some of my friends as I have 15 chams total now and my wife is ready to kill me! Thanks again

 

[Trace]

I prefer the side view to properly ID and sex chameleons but that's just me. So yeah if you have a minute grab some new pix and add them to the thread. I'll be happy to take a look.

I'm not usually keen on the larger species of chameleons but these look really nice. A lot of the Florida Veileds I see have that battered 'wild caught' look but these guys are super clean. Hopefully they do well in captivity.

 

[Mmcbain1]

Ok I want to add to my postings and this time I am going to change the names to see how good you are TRACE and well maybe they will help you because ultamitly I just want to be able to sex my Oustelets. Ok one of these chams has not been posted yet, but the three smaller ones are repeats and one additional. Thanks anyone who wants to help me sex these guys.

Cham 1

cham 2

cham 3

cham 4

 

[Trace]

Wow! Well I love a challenge! These are tough though! I know there are some outsie keepers on here so I hope they chime in. I’m just second guessing myself.

Cham 1: Male. Slight hemipenal bulge
Cham 2: Female. No bulge
Cham 3: Female. Green colour. Is that one ‘Gilda’?
Cham 4: Male. Hemipenal bulge.

 

[Kent67]

I think some side view pictures showing the full animal would help be absolutely certain. They all have very thick, healthy-looking tails and the males like V don't have a huge man lump like lateralis or pardalis. Photos showing the full body and color/pattern on the flanks will make it much easier. I agree the last 4 appear to be male, female, female, male, though.

ps. Thanks for the vote of confidence, T!

 

[Mmcbain1]

First thanks so much Kent and Trace I will be posting full body pics later tonight.
Cham 1 is Lily which in both pics was voted boy
Cham 2 is Gilda which in both pics was voted girl
Cham 3 and 4 were both Five and she was voted girl and boy :/ haha I will post some more pictures tonight and maybe we can get a better idea again thanks so much and anyone else who has any experiance sexing chams please feel free to post! Where are you seeing the hemipenal bulge? This I would like to learn!

 

[Trace]

Warning! Warning! Massively amazing Photoshop skillz ahead!

Well I’m glad to see that Kent and I agree. I’ve being second guessing myself with these guys. Here is what I’m looking for in regards to the hemipenal bulge. Usually with Furcifer species it’s pretty clear whether it’s there or not and I use the term ‘Hung like a Furcifer’ if you get my drift. As Kent and I have mentioned the ousties seem to be the exception to this rule.

I’ve circled what I think is the hemipenal bulge and the arrows indicate both ends in the case of the more subtle ones.

Lily:

V

In the case of Gilda the suspected female her tail, while certainly thick at the base, lacks that subtle little bump. It tapers in a straight line from the vent to the end of the tail.

Knowing Cham 3 and Cham 4 are the same specimen I’d likely say that one is a male because of the bump. Admittedly that specimen has certainly caused me the most thought out of the bunch. Are we seeing a subtle bulge or not? Or do I just need more coffee?

I hope this answers a few of your questions.

Cheers!
Trace

 

[Mmcbain1]

Definitly helpful! And very very much appreciated

 

[Mmcbain1]

Ok first of I want to send out a big thanks to Trace and Kent for all of your help and that was some amazing photoshop!!!!! As per your request I am posting some full body shots with tails I think they will be good I also am adding another cham that I always assumed was Male but maybe he is a she??? And you had said something like "hung like a furcifer" Does that mean Oustelets have small ummm "Junk"? Maybe we can start the expression hung like an oustaleti?

First here is Lily which probably will be Lilio although the first pic I dont see the bulge

and another this one I see the bulge

Now here is Gilda which is probably a girl. I hope

other side

Now here is Trunco or maybe Trunca although he/she is very big s/he shows greens quite often and I don't see the bulge.

and his other side

ok now here is five this is the one which has had votes in both directions eaither way his/her name is ok. all of these pics are of five below.

 

[Trace]

‘Hung like an Oustaleti’ LMAO! I’m so using that.

Lily. I’m going with male only for the distinctive bulge in that second photo. Also you can see it in some of the previous ones. While I do see some slight green the overall background is the camo brown.

Gilda: Female. She has more of a tapered tail with green on the face.

Trunco: Going with male only for the size and larger casque. I’m not sure when the girls start changing to the green but I would suspect that specimen would be greener by now considering the age and size. He’s a little more battered eh? He’s not critically thin but perhaps think about deworming him and/or up his water intake.

Five: I’m going girl mostly based on the softer colours and that bulge isn’t big enough. (That’s what she said.)

Cheers!
Trace

 

[Mmcbain1]

Thank you Thank you Trace

I agree with you that Trunco looks dehydrated, he is now parasite free according to his last fecal, I have had him since August and he has always had the sunken eye look no matter how much water he drinks, but his behavior tells me that he is healthy atleast I think so. He does look more rough than the rest of the bunch. His age is unknown and history too, but his future will be on my patio in sunshine florida in his 30X30X60" cage plenty of crickets and roaches, and hopefully a girlfriend. Maybe Gilda or Five when they are old enough.

I understand your reasoning for how you are sexing my chams, and I am very happy that I was able to learn (Although I still find it difficult for me) Hopefully we can redirect people with the same questions to this thread.


Does anyone else out there have experiance with this species???? They are not that rare!!! And are so much fun because they are big and very gentle even my Wild caught friends!

 

[Chris Anderson]

Just to throw a wrench into this, I'll mention that I have male oustaleti in the lab that have a lot of green coloration. In my opinion and from what I have seen, I'm not convinced any of these are female. Have you tried to show them to one another and see how they respond and color up? That could help at least verify a couple as definite males.

Chris

 

[Mmcbain1]

I was actually afraid of this, from all the research that I have been trying to do online all the pictures I have been staring at. The females seemed a little bit more obvious. I have 7 oustelets and they are all very similar. I just didnt think that it would be very probable that all of my chameleons were male. Now I suppose this is a possibility. I will be trying to rescue more soon hopefully I can get an obvious female. What type of reaction should I be looking for when I show a male to another male. What behavior is different than showing a male to an unreceptive female?..

Any other methods you would use in the lab to sex oustelets?