proteus mirabilis???

AndrewH

AndrewH

New Member
So i got a message for them vet yesterday, saying the culture he took from my chams gooey mouth turned out to be proteus mirabilis. I read that it can cause a urinary tract infection in humans.

Does anyone have experience with this bacterium?

The baytril he gave me has been doing him wonders, so he is doing better now.

I'm trying to figure out where it may have come from or how he had developed it. :confused:
 
Cage Info:

* Cage Type - 4x2x2 Aluminum Mesh Cage
* Lighting - 100watt Power Sun UVB / ON:7:00 AM OFF : 8:00 PM
* Temperature - 95F Basking / 75 Ambient Day / 60 Ambient Night
* Humidity - 40-70% Ultrasonic humidifier / 3 Minute misting in the morning.
* Plants - Everything is fake
* Location - On Top of a night stand, 2 windows to each side of him, but not directly in front of windows or vents.

Chameleon Info:

* Your Chameleon - Panther Cham Ambilobe Blue Bar 8 months old, ive had him since he was 3 months.
* Feeding - Superworms, Gutloaded Cricks, Hornworms, and occasional wax, phoenix and giant mealworm. What amount? Amount is 5-7 various feeders a day. Gut load : Dry cat food, collard, turnip, and mustard greens, raisins.
* Supplements - Calcium with NO D3 3 times a week (Mon, Wends, Fri) Herptevite 2 times a week (Tues & Sat)
* Watering - Big Dripper / Rubber Syringe.
* Fecal Description - Half the size of a mans pinkie, Holds together, Urate is white, sometimes has small ring of orange at the base, but not all the time.
* History - So far he was been in great health, until now.
* Current Problem - Inflammation along the gum line, and greenish / yellowish tinted mucus in mouth.
 
This is not the cause of the problem ... but two things I would change are:
1.) including cat food in the gut load*
2.) feeding giant mealworms**

*Too much preformed Vitamin A, protein and ash. Continuing to use this may cause gular edema.

** These become giants due to being fed hormones.

Who knows where your Panther's problem could have originated .. surely there will be lots of guesses.
What is the prescribed treatment?

-Brad
 
Edema? that sucks, i read that gut loading with cat food would provide your cham a chance to access other types of proteins and was used as a treatment in one case.

http://www.veiled-chameleon.com/weblog/archives/000229.html

:confused::confused:

maybe he was using wet cat food?

could i substitute the cat food for tropical fish flakes? i really do like the idea of giving him other types of complex proteins into his diet. Maybe its time to take that dive into roaches?:(

I was using the giant mealworms for their chitin and feeding them sparingly to provide him some roughage as suggested by another member.

When i first got him, i made a noob mistake of giving him mealworms daily. He started to poop irregularly and seemed constipated and man the look on his face when he would push one of those turds out looked like he was having a baby! :D

after i took the mealworms out, he started eating bark. I read that they will do that at times if they are not getting a nutrient they are looking for or need, much like how you read about them eating dirt.

I just recently re introduced them to him about a week ago and hes stopped with the bark, should i just use the regular sized mealworms instead?

Thanks for the help brad :)

oh yea, treatment was 5 cc's of 1% baytril daily for 10 days, orally administered.

there was a second bacteria, but i couldnt make it out over the voice mail, so i was gonna ask him to spell it for me when i call him monday. sounded something like seratious morcestious..
 
No fish flakes either .. same problem.
Superworms should provide enough chitin and will not cause the constipation problems that mealworms can.

-Brad
 
I just read the link.
Feeding cat food directly to a chameleon might be one of the worst ideas I have heard of to date.
I cannot believe this was prescribed by a qualified veterinarian.

-Brad
 
AndrewH said:
* Lighting - 100watt Power Sun UVB / ON:7:00 AM OFF : 8:00 PM

* Your Chameleon - Panther Cham Ambilobe Blue Bar 8 months old, ive had him since he was 3 months.

*Gut load : Dry cat food, collard, turnip, and mustard greens, raisins.

* Supplements - Calcium with NO D3 3 times a week (Mon, Wends, Fri) Herptevite 2 times a week (Tues & Sat)
Click to expand...
Howdy Andrew,

I'd be tempted to turn-off the Power Sun at around 6pm. I don't think there is much benefit from the extra 2 hours tacked on the end and many keepers have often noted that their chameleons have already migrated to their sleeping branch by 5pm-6pm indicating that they are done with lighting. If the room gets outdoor ambient light from that point on then I think things will be closer to ideal.

What is the distance from the Power Sun to the chameleon's normal basking position?

Like Brad said, there's too much risk in gutloading with catfood. We'll have to get you on the list for gutload from our South Bay Chameleon Keepers' resident gutload monger :)! https://www.chameleonforums.com/gutload-sale-12545/#post105175

Any reason that you aren't dusting once in a while with Ca/D3? If not then take a look at either Miner-All (I) (has a low D3 dose) or Rep-Cal (high dose D3) and look at Brad's schedule or one of the others out there. You'll probably find that 1-2 times a week is closer than none at all. (Nix the D3 if he's getting unfiltered sunlight for many hours a week.) Herptivite might be dosed at closer to twice a month for his age.


On a semi-side-note about lighting hours, a keeper that I know had lots of chameleon health problems. He finally gave-up keeping chameleons because they always seemed to succumb to some kind of illness. Months later, I was talking with his daughter at a store and she said that she finally realized one of the major problems with her dad's chameleon husbandry was that he ran the lights 24 hours a day :eek:. Talk about your stressed-out chameleons :(. They were just dying to sleep :eek:.
 
I've been doing this for a while...but Im still having trouble with my supplement schedule, or just changing it around every few months. Liddy Kammer told me to give all 3 products in a week e.g. monday- herptivite, Wednesday- mineral all 0, and Friday - repcal w/d3. If been using this schedule for a few months now, and it seems to be working... but one of my panthers got edema. I heard it might have something to do with over supplementing? She didn't mention the calcuim without D3 so I've been administrating it on Sunday. Brad, would your schedule work for panthers?

Brian

P.S I ordered some gutload from Steve (SsimsswiSS) and its great, I'll probaly keep on ordering it from him.
 
My schedule would/does work for panthers.
Keep in mind that (in my opinion) supplements need to be reduced once the chameleon has reached adulthood.

-Brad

fyi: I would not recommend my schedule for any of the montane species.
 
Thanks Brad!!
I'll go ahead and try that schedule for my panthers. The scedule I just posted is the one liddy gave me for adult chameleons. I have one more question... should I give calcium without D3 3-4 times a week for adult chams, that are 7 months+ ?

Brian
 
Last edited:
Dave Weldon said:
Howdy Andrew,

I'd be tempted to turn-off the Power Sun at around 6pm. I don't think there is much benefit from the extra 2 hours tacked on the end and many keepers have often noted that their chameleons have already migrated to their sleeping branch by 5pm-6pm indicating that they are done with lighting. If the room gets outdoor ambient light from that point on then I think things will be closer to ideal.

What is the distance from the Power Sun to the chameleon's normal basking position?

Like Brad said, there's too much risk in gutloading with catfood. We'll have to get you on the list for gutload from our South Bay Chameleon Keepers' resident gutload monger :)! https://www.chameleonforums.com/gutload-sale-12545/#post105175

Any reason that you aren't dusting once in a while with Ca/D3? If not then take a look at either Miner-All (I) (has a low D3 dose) or Rep-Cal (high dose D3) and look at Brad's schedule or one of the others out there. You'll probably find that 1-2 times a week is closer than none at all. (Nix the D3 if he's getting unfiltered sunlight for many hours a week.) Herptivite might be dosed at closer to twice a month for his age.


On a semi-side-note about lighting hours, a keeper that I know had lots of chameleon health problems. He finally gave-up keeping chameleons because they always seemed to succumb to some kind of illness. Months later, I was talking with his daughter at a store and she said that she finally realized one of the major problems with her dad's chameleon husbandry was that he ran the lights 24 hours a day :eek:. Talk about your stressed-out chameleons :(. They were just dying to sleep :eek:.
Click to expand...

Hey dave,

yea i hear ya on lights off at 6, it doesn't really do too much for them now that you mentioned it and probably aggravates em more if he wanted to go to bed a bit earlier, wouldn't want to make em cranky like that other guy did :(

The distance is about 10 inches from bulb to basking spot.


i use the D3 very seldomly, like 1-2 times a month, just forgot to mention it, but on the weekends he usually gets plenty of direct natural sunlight. about 6 hrs sat and 6 hrs sunday. should i still use the d3??

thanks to Dav and Brad for the help :)
 
AndrewH said:
i use the D3 very seldomly, like 1-2 times a month, just forgot to mention it, but on the weekends he usually gets plenty of direct natural sunlight. about 6 hrs sat and 6 hrs sunday. should i still use the d3??...
Click to expand...
Howdy Andrew,

With that level of sunshine expose, you might be on the border of needing extra D3 or not :eek:. What might be a good fit is Miner-All (I) Ca/D3. It only has about 4,400 IU/Kg. That compares to Rep-Cal Ca/D3 with 400,000 IU/Kg. Miner-All (I) (I = Indoors = D3 added) will supply calcium with a relatively low dose of D3 plus a bunch of trace minerals that are also needed.
 
talked to the vet today, his suspicions are that th bacteria could have come from his water source even though i treat it with reptisafe. ill clean his dripper more regularly and hopefully that will be the last we see of this.

Actually, thinking about it, it could ave been from when he was in the shower and might have drank alot of unfiltered water?? it was the second time i ever did it and it was for a pretty long time, 45 min? I DO have hard water btw. bad move on my part i guess, i should be stoned.
 
He is moving around alot, has a stronger grip. showing good colors and the goop from his mouth and inflammation on his gum line have disappeared. I saw him drink a little sunday but not as much as usual. Same thing with eating, he ate just little bit. his eyeballs keep sinking in a little more each day. I am wondering if should go to the vet and get him fluids...
 
AndrewH said:
does that mean i should get a water filter??:confused: sorry i failed chemistry :eek:
Click to expand...

Yeah..reverse osmosis is a water filter. A lot of people use bottled water also, I use a revers osmosis system I purchased from Costo. They also have many other filteration systems you may want to check out. Are you using normal tap water with reptisafe?

Brian
 
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