No point in buying from breeders

I'm fairly new to chameleon breeding but not new to reality. I'm just seeing if I'm not the only one that doesn't hype over buying baby chams for outrageous prices like 275$ plus shipping just because some guy in Cali or Florida is the one producing it. They make is seem like their chameleons are so special because they came from a certain line. I understand that you look at the sire and you want an exact replica of that cham. When more than often i seen pics of grown up babies from name brand breeders that don't look that great at all. That is why I started off with 1.2 wild caught ambilobes for my breeding project to produce my own unique blood line. Also I feel that as friendly as everyone seems on here complementing on your chams, some individuals hate to see others have success is breeding and go on and on about how hard it is, how much it costs etc. If anyone feels the same please share.

P.S if you think im bashing. I am.

To me a healthy chameleon is a healthy chameleon no matter who you get it from. Power to the little guy.

It's not that people hate see others have success in breeding, that is not the case at all. We warn people of the challenge for those who think breeding is just a quick buck, and end up having many complications or the babies/parents dying because of research that was not adequete. This forum is to help the chameleons, not to hate other's success. I don't know where you got that theory from.

No dont take me wrong i know that there is alot of good info on here just alot of people tend to give off that vibe that makes it seem that if you dont do it thier way the chams will die off.

reefercheefer said:

I'm fairly new to chameleon breeding but not new to reality. I'm just seeing if I'm not the only one that doesn't hype over buying baby chams for outrageous prices like 275$ plus shipping just because some guy in Cali or Florida is the one producing it. They make is seem like their chameleons are so special because they came from a certain line. I understand that you look at the sire and you want an exact replica of that cham. When more than often i seen pics of grown up babies from name brand breeders that don't look that great at all. That is why I started off with 1.2 wild caught ambilobes for my breeding project to produce my own unique blood line. Also I feel that as friendly as everyone seems on here complementing on your chams, some individuals hate to see others have success is breeding and go on and on about how hard it is, how much it costs etc. If anyone feels the same please share.

P.S if you think im bashing. I am.

To me a healthy chameleon is a healthy chameleon no matter who you get it from. Power to the little guy.

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I don't suggest wild caught animals unless you are an experienced breeder.

So being a breeder yourself...What do you think 3 month panthers are worth?

i mean..How much did it cost you in feeders for the first three months to feed just one little one? How much time did you spend caring for that little one..what do you think thats worth over the three months? How about the electricity used to care for that little one? How much was the initial investment in the breeding group and supplies?

I see your point that alot of times the offspring look nothing like the sire and i agree that is bs.

reefer, on a guess when you get your line established, you're going to look at how much money and time you've invested and decide that you have to price your chameleons at upwards of $200 each in order for it to be worthwhile. You may even come to think that your chameleons are--thanks to your great care and all the hard work you've done--exceptional animals that stand out from what's available in stores. You might well price them with that in mind.

I've never seen anyone here do anything less than cheer when someone has success breeding.

True, there are lots of warnings and advice given but as Karma says, that's to share the experiences people have had. It's not a cakewalk. It's not inexpensive and, unless done properly, it can result in a lot of dead animals.

People who have experience in breeding warn others who say they are interested because so many people don't think it through. They see a chance to make some money, I mean they sell for 200-350 sometimes, that's some decent money to be made. They don't take into consideration any of the costs, and effort it takes to get to that point. And if someone decides to breed and aren't prepared for all the work and money to go into it - they suffer, and so do the baby chams.

I knew id get an Admin in here commenting. And why do you not suggest WC animals brad? Worst case is that they have parasites or are not social. Where do you think all these breeders started? People need to realize that animals are born to survive against elements. Some are not as hardy as others I understand but there are also cases where you do everything right and give an animal perfect care and they die.

I dont count my eggs before they hatch but as of right now i am sitting on 50 eggs and plan to sell 2 month olds for roughly between 150-200$ and hold back a few of the better ones and as many WC hatchlings as i can house to have another separate bloodline. IF you are concerned about my financial situation on how i will pay for feeders, ill have you know i make 50K a year. for a 23 year old thats not too shabby. Ive been keeping reptiles since I was in diapers.

I wouldn't buy from a breeder either. Breeders only want money. I buy from chameleon enthusiasts. They are the ones who participate in discussions, ask questions and are prepared to learn not just from their own successes and failures, but from those of others as well. A chameleon breeder will take your money and send you a chameleon. A chameleon enthusiast will answer a hundred questions you ask of them and always patiently, and won't send you a chameleon until they feel you can give him a healthy environment to live in.

As for this board, whether it's someone who has kept chameleons for decades and posts about their thousandth panther clutch hatching out, or someone who bought a Jackson from Petco last week and it's just given birth, all people get support here, I have never seen anything else.

Bash away. Ive seen alot of ppl come on this site and other sites and make uneducated statements like this. After you have hatched a clutch yourself & spent 3 or 4 months raising the babies calculate your total costs associated with the project. Even at $250-300 per cham that greedy breeder your bashing isnt making much per cham. Also that damn greedy breeder has females in that clutch that have to be sold. They are sold for less $$$ and they are harder to sell period. Since not eveyone wants girls that greedy breeder will have to feed & care for them til they can find good homes for them. Theres more than just feeding costs think about enclosures that have to be purchased or built, lighting costs, & cage furniture.

I guess i should have used a better choice of words but what i meant is how much other people discourage or question pet owners. like Brad for example. I got wild chams, they are healthy and laid clutches. what more do you want? I know there are a lot of ignorant owners out there and just ignorant people in general but that doesn't mean there aren't well informed and committed owners like myself. I knew exactly what i was getting into with breeding. I calculated everything down from every cham, cage, decor. Im only 1100$ into it right now with the expectation to hatch 50 eggs. and have a couple more clutches incubating following those. I can get boxes of 1000 pinheads for 18$. even if i went through 50 boxes in 2-3 months. that's only 900$ or equivalent to selling 5 hatchlings. So basically it costs 5 babies to grow 50 of them. I don't see a loss possible if even half of the babies perished. these are just rough ball park estimates but even if you give or take 100% each way theres still no sight of going bankrupt. Im not solely here for the profits but for the joy of raising them.

Texas Panther Man said:

Bash away. Ive seen alot of ppl come on this site and other sites and make uneducated statements like this. After you have hatched a clutch yourself & spent 3 or 4 months raising the babies calculate your total costs associated with the project. Even at $250-300 per cham that greedy breeder your bashing isnt making much per cham. Also that damn greedy breeder has females in that clutch that have to be sold. They are sold for less $$$ and they are harder to sell period. Since not eveyone wants girls that greedy breeder will have to feed & care for them til they can find good homes for them. Theres more than just feeding costs think about enclosures that have to be purchased or built, lighting costs, & cage furniture.

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OK maybe its hard for them to sell females because they charge 275$ for them. I know if i posted females up for 150$ everyone and thier mother would get one. If they barely make any money breeding chams then tell me WTF they are doing breeding them. You act like breeders don't breed their own feeders, make thier own cages and rape retail on chams.

Sounds like you have it all worked out man. Why are you even asking questions you seem to have all the answers already?

You havent considered that you could lose all those eggs during incubation. Ive known ppl with alot more exp than you lose whole clutches during incubation.

Did you run fecals on those wc's prior to breeding them? If so thats another cost of breeding. If you didnt, and one of them had parasites or coccidia then you may not hatch anything or you may lose most of the eggs during incubation.

Did you consider that your lucky that your male didnt injure himself or one of the females while breeding. Those things do happen on occasion. Thats another potential cost that a breeder has to conisider. A vet visit isnt cheap.

I see your point, but in a different way. If you have a clutch of baby veileds and baby panthers, they are going to cost the same to care for. Although you are going to make alot more profit for the panthers. So why cant you sell something like a panther, who cost the same to care for, for the price of a veiled. I know that the original sires of panthers cost more, but you would be making back that money by selling a few of the babies. I believe that the pricing shouldnt be on color and sires, but more on cost of care

reefercheefer said:

OK maybe its hard for them to sell females because they charge 275$ for them. I know if i posted females up for 150$ everyone and thier mother would get one. If they barely make any money breeding chams then tell me WTF they are doing breeding them. You act like breeders don't breed their own feeders, make thier own cages and rape retail on chams.

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Reallllly because I have been on this forum for yrs. And have been breeding off and on since '96. Ive seen females sit on this site and others for months at $150 a piece. So good luck, show us how its done. Because frankly I dont risk my pets health and I dont raise and work on my offspring just to sell them for free. My time & my experience is worth $$$$. You need to stop thinking you know it all and start listening to the ppl who have actually done what your still attempting to do.

If i lose every egg what did i really lose? Nothing. breeding chams is just a hobby and if it works out then great if it doesn't then it doesn't but I don't see a reason for it not to. I dont mind keeping chams til they sell, im not money hungry and if i really could not afford it i know plenty of friends that are hobbyists and local cham keepers that would love some free or 1$ panthers lol.

Zubi said:

I see your point, but in a different way. If you have a clutch of baby veileds and baby panthers, they are going to cost the same to care for. Although you are going to make alot more profit for the panthers. So why cant you sell something like a panther, who cost the same to care for, for the price of a veiled. I know that the original sires of panthers cost more, but you would be making back that money by selling a few of the babies. I believe that the pricing shouldnt be on color and sires, but more on cost of care

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I originally owned baby panthers 6 years ago but never thought about breeding til now. I also owned many viels and didnt consider breeding til just a few months ago. when i went over the number and everything i didnt see a point in breeding viels. the panthers take the same amount of time/money and you will probably just break even. Next year after a get some hatchlings im using the hobby money to move onto parsons.

reefercheefer said:

If i lose every egg what did i really lose? Nothing. breeding chams is just a hobby and if it works out then great if it doesn't then it doesn't but I don't see a reason for it not to. I dont mind keeping chams til they sell, im not money hungry and if i really could not afford it i know plenty of friends that are hobbyists and local cham keepers that would love some free or 1$ panthers lol.

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Sign me up for that

reefercheefer said:

If i lose every egg what did i really lose? Nothing. breeding chams is just a hobby and if it works out then great if it doesn't then it doesn't but I don't see a reason for it not to. I dont mind keeping chams til they sell, im not money hungry and if i really could not afford it i know plenty of friends that are hobbyists and local cham keepers that would love some free or 1$ panthers lol.

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Breeding chams is not just a hobby. It's taking care of LIVING animals. This isn't golf. You can't just lose a ball and buy a new one. If you had any sort of care for them in general you'd listen to the people who know what they're doing, instead of saying oh, they died, guess I'll do it again.

KarmaChameleon1337 said:

Breeding chams is not just a hobby. It's taking care of LIVING animals. This isn't golf. You can't just lose a ball and buy a new one. If you had any sort of care for them in general you'd listen to the people who know what they're doing, instead of saying oh, they died, guess I'll do it again.

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yea i do care for them but when they die even when i care for them what am i suppose to do? just quit chameleons all together like your saying. I dont think so. Id go right back and try again.