Locales

I've been reading up on the different locals and over the course of my reasearch came across questions of purity. This led me to wonder what exactly is a pure form of some locals? I mean I can easily understand lets say the form of oorena mena, but what about something like ambilobes or ambanjas? What exactly would a pure form look like? And how exactly can a novice know they aren't getting a 'mutt' when it seems many ideas and opinions on such can be conflicting. I'd like to hear some ideas and opinions please and thankyou.

Great question. I have noticed the same thing with chameleon "mutts", for example I have seen many amabanja chameleons that look like blue-barred ambilobes? I still have major difficulties picking out the differences between the the different chameleon types in a species and I cannot find any definitions that accurately describe the different types. Somebody please share your knowledge.

cushcameleon said:

Great question. I have noticed the same thing with chameleon "mutts", for example I have seen many amabanja chameleons that look like blue-barred ambilobes?

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Exactly! This is not to say crosses aren't beautiful, they are in their own right IMHO. But how exactly can we know what's a cross and what isn't? If smugglers will label WC incorrectly then whose to say the ones who purchase them won't either and the customers of that person and so on? Inturn it begins a whole chain of misinformed people (not to mention those who use these as a basis for a local) until some knowledgable person indicates that somewhere down the line there was a mistake and instead of a prized ambanja you payed a small fourtune for a nosey be x ambanja x ambilobe or something of that nature. There we have the basis for incorrect assuptions and labels that weren't used properly. So then the real question comes up : How can one correct themselves and better ensure that what their paying for is really the local their expecting? I personally can appreciate a beautifully colored cham as well as the next person, but I'm beignning to understand some peoples distaste for crossbreeds.

There are slight and major differences between all the locales you need to study the the locales. There are alot of us on this board who can tell the differences.

Dean

The adcham site has some photos you can compare to

just continue looking at pictures. look at all the breeder's pictures. site sponsor's websites is great start at looking for them.

the only two hybrids that i still have trouble with, are Joe's McLovin and the Kammer's Odo. I've seen so many Ambilobes look just like them!

Ambilobes are bred with Nosy Be for just more blue! It's unusal to me, sometimes they turn out looking like Screaming Ambilobes with just sexxxy thick blue bars.

again, those are the only 2 hybrids i honestly have serious trouble with telling apart.

Bone structure can also help you, the different locales have some different bone structure not just different colors, like Ambanja's for instance normally have a longer rostral appendage than ambilobe etc. Thats one of the things that can really help besides color alone.

yes i believe Ambanja normally have them a little longer. but still, thats not always true, and u can never judge a chameleon's locality by that.

it all comes down to trust, and knowledge of the person's repuation.

unless of course, u are actually in Maddy!!! lol.

There are usually distinct differences in each locale, but there can be a lot of variation in some locales that can cause them to almost resemble others. To know whether you are getting a pure locale, go with a reputable breeder that knows bloodline history on their chams or has wild caught breeders. The problem that can arise if you purchase a juvenile is that you won't know if you are getting what you were told it was until it matures and shows it's true colors. Then you actually don't know for sure until you breed it and the offspring grow up to show pure coloration and patterns which overall could take a couple of years. When I see a mature crossbreed cham I can normally see aspects from each locale but not always.

i also have heard about size differences? example:

ankaramy and nosy faly tend to be more sensative? (not so sure in which ways though) smaller in size too, including male.

i have also heard that Sambava get to be pretty BIG, and are more hardy...

what are people's experience who have bred/kept a number of locales which include these 3?

i wonder if any locale's eggs grow to big bigger than other locale's egg size. (when reaching their maximum size) bigger hatchlings. all comes to genes, not specifically based on their locality?

wheres Chris Anderson?

I would suggest looking at books where wild pardalis are pictured or from images of tours. It is too hard to look at captive bred american animals and honestly know the locale. There are too many people involved that are just in it to make money so they will say it is whatever locale the buyer wants. I mean think, the collectors don't care where they get them, they just want to get paid for them and if a few from another area get thrown in the mix...so be it.

That being said there are major differences between many locales, but when you start to look at mixes they may or may not exhibit these characteristics but they may pass it to their offspring who exhibits the different characteristics.

Clearly the closer to WC the more of a chance that the animal is pure, but even then sometimes females come in that are not what the importer expects them to be. And no one will know the difference until they have offspring.

-chris

Ohhh...and also in general when an entire clutch looks like the standard way a locale looks...its probably the safest to say those are pure. When you get the "odd balls" or unique coloration, there is more of a chance that lines are not 100% pure. *more of a chance*

-chris

CleanLineChameleons said:

Ohhh...and also in general when an entire clutch looks like the standard way a locale looks...its probably the safest to say those are pure. When you get the "odd balls" or unique coloration, there is more of a chance that lines are not 100% pure. *more of a chance*

-chris

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Thankyou chris I think I'm beginning to gain a better grasp on locality. But honestly it's these "oddballs" that continue to throw me off. How can you be sure of the purities of a line when encountering unique ones in a bunch? Is it possible to have an "oddball" even with a pure line?

I would guess there's probably some cross-breeding of locales even in the wild. its not like there are walls between areas, or as if the chameleons care about each others lineage. Plus humans have likely been moving the creatures around to varying degress for quite some time. Further, what is commonly called a pure something in North America is often the result of selective breeding, rather than a close resemblance to the wild originals. A good example of this is the "true blue" Nosy Be - from what I understand, Nosy Be arent as "true blue" in the wild.

One other piece of the puzzle is the collection and housing process of wild caught Chameleons. A collector may collect "pure" Ambilobes, and label them correctly. In the holding area (which may be only one of many stops along the way) a pure Ambilobe female may mate with a Sambava. Nick orders an Ambilobe female, gets a pure Ambilobe female, but the clutch she drops is a cross, not a pure Ambilobe.
Wild caught eggs that we hatch really can't be guaranteed to be "pure," unless the female Cham has not come into contact with other Chams of differing locales. And there is no way anyone in the chain can guarantee that the handling process was sterile when it comes to mixing locales.
If you want pure locales, your best option is to purchase captive bred babies (CB), not captive hatched (CH) where you can see the parents. Although this is best, females are still difficult to separate out the locales by looking at them, so any purchase may have the milkman in the mix!!

Nick

Jerm writes:
There are usually distinct differences in each locale, but there can be a lot of variation in some locales that can cause them to almost resemble others

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Look at locales as bell curves. The majority from any given region will have enough of the distinctive characteristics that are commonly recognized with that Locale. And then there will be the fringe odd animals. They may not be from the geographical fringes, but just an uncommon combination of what that locale can produce. An extreme example would be an Ambilobe with purple bars on a full red background, combining the two least common larger traits from that region on the same animal (as in our Hyperion). Those that have unpacked the most WC's, imported the most, or walked around Madagascar ad-nauseum, will have the best grasp of Locale variations. Look at lots of pictures, although you can go to "reputable breeder" websites and on occasion see mutts labeled as pedigree.

CleanLine writes:
Ohhh...and also in general when an entire clutch looks like the standard way a locale looks...its probably the safest to say those are pure.

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Clutches are usually pretty consistent in where they fall within the bell curve. Can't recall a clutch ever where half the males looked typical, but then half did not (or 75-25 ... no matter)

Sandra chameleon writes:
I would guess there's probably some cross-breeding of locales even in the wild. its not like there are walls between areas, or as if the chameleons care about each others lineage.

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I don't think so. While there are not fences dividing locales, nor will you find places where you could look into a tree and see two diffferent locales about to cross-breed. These would be those gray regions, or fringe areas, where animals may be as "odd balls" if we were looking to fit them into some Locale description. A great example would be to head north out of the Ambilobe region, eventually finding animals with no blue barring, only red, and then eventually deciding that the animals in the tree could pass as fringe red-bar Ambilobes or as fringe Diego Suarez. Call them whatever you will, but it is not a wild cross-locale. Its the fringe areas of two locales where we would expect more pheno-typical representation were we to move in a direction towards the center of either region.

As a breeder and seller of panthers, I can tell you that the easiest Ambilobe to sell is one that looks most like folks concept of what an Ambilobe should look like. Dittos for all other Locales. If I have to spend too much time trying to convince anyone that "this really is an Ambilobe despite how it looks", then I need to get my bloodlines closer to the middle of the bell-curve on the next generation, or maybe find a new calling.

How can you be sure, or safe ? Buy offspring males that are large enough so that "what you see is what you get", in that they look like what you expect or want from that locale. If buying females, you increase the likelihood that you are getting the real deal if that breeder has a quantity of sibling brothers for sale, showing color as expected, such that you can conclude that they have sibling females as well. If you can't wait to buy an animal that is large enough to show color, then you are the type of customer that those who are looking to make a less-than-honest buck are looking for.

Chameleon Company said:

Look at locales as bell curves.
[...]
How can you be sure, or safe ? Buy offspring males that are large enough so that "what you see is what you get", in that they look like what you expect or want from that locale.

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Good advice.

Forgot one ...

Nick writes :
If you want pure locales, your best option is to purchase captive bred babies (CB), not captive hatched (CH) where you can see the parents.

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Nope, not IMMHO. Its to buy animals where the males are showing enough color so that they validate how they were labeled. Again, what you see is what you get. We hatch many CH's here, and use those offspring as future breeders, expecially the females. Females are not validated by how they look. They are validated by how their sibling brothers look, or by how their offspring look. CH or CB, it doesn't matter until we have color-validation. It matters not what I think the female dam is if her offspring do not color as expected. One can "see the parents" all they want, or trust the breeder all they want. The proof is always in the pudding, and that is how they eventually look when large enough to show color. Hope them Ousty's are well

Chameleon Company said:

Nope, not IMMHO. Its to buy animals where the males are showing enough color so that they validate how they were labeled. Again, what you see is what you get. We hatch many CH's here, and use those offspring as future breeders, expecially the females. Females are not validated by how they look. They are validated by how their sibling brothers look, or by how their offspring look. CH or CB, it doesn't matter until we have color-validation. It matters not what I think the female dam is if her offspring do not color as expected. One can "see the parents" all they want, or trust the breeder all they want. The proof is always in the pudding, and that is how they eventually look when large enough to show color. Hope them Ousty's are well

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I need 50 or so cages to grow lots of babies up to see their color......Jim, you got some extra cages and baby chams in your fleet?? Only because I care would I take these from you to help solve this issue

Nick

Chameleon Company said:

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Look at lots of pictures, although you can go to "reputable breeder" websites and on occasion see mutts labeled as pedigree.

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This is where I become a bit confused, is it possible for something that seems like a mutt to actually be real pedigree? and if so how can someone whose a novice differentiate between the two? Personally I'd rather not cross my fingers and hope for the best, I'd feel better knowing that I can be better assured that im truly getting what I payed for and expecting.