Why You Should Never Use Tap Water For Your Chameleon

[Decadancin]

Although I am not disputing what is being said here (and honestly did not read all of it yet, but will ) it occurs to me that there are still too many variables to come to a definite conclusion on the matter. Lineage could have some effect, incubation variables, other environmental factors... Even the natural "distilled" water that rains down is tainted by debris that makes up molecules that form clouds.
Again, I'm not disputing, but I always believe that we need to look at all the variables before making a decision. If we look at it trying to prove our theory, our theory usually will come out as true. There isn't a control group to compare it with so we need to consider all possibilities, even those we haven't thought of yet. (For the record, I am definitely not one for using "tap" water unless it is tested and you know what is in it.)

 

[DanSB]

Zen Reptiles,

First off I only mist with distilled water, thus my chams and Amphibians are only misted with distilled. HOWEVER for my amphibians I use tap water treated with Repti-Safe and have seen no major issues but I am curious because I do believe there could be problems we would only observe in the long run with our water sources...

Would an RO system be sufficient to remove the contaminants you are talking about? The water in our house is clearly very hard, turns glass bowls white if water is left in them for more than a few days hard and the cats won't even drink it unless it goes through a Britta filter but from the sounds of it you're worried about hormones and other things too small to be properly filtered out by a normal filter...

 

[Zen Reptiles]

Amphibians are a totally different story. They cannot survive in pure water because of the effects of osmosis.

For amphibians, you want to START with RO or Distilled, and then add ingredients under your control such as salinity, minerals, tannins, humic acid..... You can accomplish this with alder pinecones, magnolia leaves, oak leaves, catappa (Indian almond) leaves, peat moss, sphagnum, pure (non iodized) salt such as Himalayan pink rock salt....

DO NOT USE STRAIGHT PURE WATER FOR AMPHIBIANS. It is okay to mist with pure water, however.

Unfortunately, there are many RO systems out there. I have tested some which people have paid thousands of dollars for to get installed and warranty etc...which reduce contaminants from 300 TDS down to 280 TDS. A certified RO should remove at least 93% of contaminants - this would take the TDS down to about 10-15. You need to look for that $10 Million word 'REMOVE'. Most filters that say REDUCE are junk. Look for certification from the NSF (National Sanitation Foundation) and WQA (Water Quality Association). I believe California has some of the strictest laws in the world for water filters, so you may want to look to manufacturers based there.

 

[TheVeiledProphet]

If you live on the edge of the earth like Alaska and meet all those unlikely (1 in 10,000,000) requirements, your tap water may be alright. If you are the majority of Earth's population, this is not the case. In terms of chameleons, any assertion you make on water based on health guidelines are for humans and will be foolishly misguided. We know for certain that chemicals in water affect smaller animals much quicker and much more detrimentally than in us. There is a reason reptiles and amphibians are used in these studies...

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0147651315301093 60% - 100% of freshwater Bass developing eggs in their testicles from endocrine disrupting chemicals in water.
http://aerg.canberra.edu.au/library/sex_reptile/1996_Guillette_etal_EDCs_in_alligators.pdf Alligators with abnormal reproductive organs and testosterone levels.
http://www.pnas.org/content/99/8/5476.long Atrazine (most commonly used pesticide in USA) causing eggs to develop in testicles of male frogs.
http://web.kitsapsun.com/archive/1998/11-28/0018_environment__airborne_chemicals_f.html chemicals coming from Asia into Westcoast watersheds found to bio-accumulate in fish.
http://www.futurity.org/bpa-turtle-reproduction-899802/ Turtle eggs exposed to BPA turn 100% female, overriding natural process of temperature sex determination.
http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/news/2013/toxic-turtles Waste accumulation in sea water is also accumulating in sea turtles, depressing immune function. (yes this is sea water, but these chemicals leach into the sea from fresh water where we draw our tap water from).
http://www.serc.si.edu/education/resources/watershed/stories/salamanders.aspx The Natural History of Amphibians describes environmental contaminants as "closest to being a "single cause" behind widespread amphibian declines."
http://sydney.edu.au/news/84.html?newsstoryid=14491 Shingleback skinks developing anemia due to agricultural spray.
https://greenrage.wordpress.com/2008/04/20/earth-week-environment-posts-1-oil-spills-and-iguanas/ Galapagos iguanas suffered a severe population decline after a low-level oil spill which altered the digestive bacteria in their gut - this led to malabsorption and ultimately starvation.

In summary, most of the inadequate and blasé advice that you do find on a hobby forum is in regards to human studies and government statistics, and personal opinions. This is exactly why I posted this thread.. I've been researching water quality for 12 years now and I can tell you that it is very difficult to connect the dots, get honest/thorough information, and in some cases there have been government documents deleted/censored such as the case of "Aluminum and Human Health" published by Health Canada in 2004 and deleted/censored from the archives in November of 2015. What we do know is that reptiles are affected by these interactions more than you are.

Having traveled around the world, and seeing places such as Borneo with a high degree of biodiversity devastated by palm plantations, I predict in the not so distant future that many species of reptiles and amphibians will exist only in private collections and collectors such as those present will require a paradigm shift to a higher standard of husbandry in order to preserve those species until they can be reintroduced to secondary growth or controlled ecosystems. Our understanding of water quality will play a crucial role in this process, particularly when endocrine disrupting chemicals are present. As China's demand for oldgrowth wood from Madagascar increases with an increasing middle class who desire and can afford it, chameleons will be one of the first groups, along with golden toads of Panama and Mexican Axolotls, to depend on captive populations.

It is not simply something to brush off as 'it depends where you live.' Of course, to the general hobbyist with one chameleon, maybe they have no reason to care and an 'it depends' attitude will be enough. But for those of us who have kept chameleons for our entire lives and have vested interest in the understanding of perfect husbandry, there is reason to care.

Another reference for the fact that this is a severely underesearched area: Ecotoxicology of Amphibians and Reptiles, Second Edition. It's over $200, but luckily there is google books where half of it may be viewed for free:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=__7LBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA547&dq=Ecotoxicology+of+Amphibians+and+Reptiles,+Second+Edition&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwim0fe1iabOAhUL7mMKHUz1DscQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=Ecotoxicology of Amphibians and Reptiles, Second Edition&f=false

If you had been researching hammers for 12 years instead of water you would probably bloviate and pontificate about how i should switch my Picards Carpenter Roofing hammer is in now way exchangeable with my Craftsman NEXTEC Rotating head autohammer. Or that without a proper Stilleto Tibone TBII-15 titanium hammer I will never reach perfect square angles in my construction projects. But I like to use a rock!

 

[Bwian]

Distilled water will be like a bacterial growth playground after a short while as it has no chlorine to prevent it. So its fine to use immediately but not to store, rainwater is in no way as pure as people believe, when it leaves the clouds it is but by the time.it has got to us it will have picked up no end of dust, bacteria and chemicals that are becoming more prevelant in our atmosphere as it falls, distilled water absorbs c02 like a sponge and has no buffers in it which are added to our drinking water so will always be slightly acidic, all sodas are made with distilled water which is one of the reasons they are acidic and so bad for you. I have to use tap water at the moment but will be installing a RO system in the next few months to use for my panthers so.it doesn't clog things up with minerals, I'm in the UK and a hard water area

 

[Zen Reptiles]

When you apply current values, no...of course rain water is not pure. However, for the past 100 million years of known chameleon evolution, the atmosphere has been relatively clear compared to today's standard..save for any major volcanic events.

Your statements are very misleading and half-truthful. Distilled and reverse osmosis water, as with any pure water, are a neutral reading of 7.0 +/- . When they absorb atmospheric impurities (including the process of carbonation in soft drinks) the pH can go down to 5.5 - 5.8...whereas Coca Cola is a reading of 2.52... a far cry from what you are implying. The real facts are: phosphoric acid is added to soda to give it 'bite'. Citric acid is also added as a preservative. Both of these are acids and cause soda to become acidic.

Water is neutral by nature and changes depending on what is added to it. Even temperature can affect pH.....spray hot water? It's more acidic.....but still only down to about 6...which does not mean it *is* acidic. There is a big difference between very, slightly, and moderately.

There are much safer, proven methods to purify water from bacterial growth. If microbes are a concern, adding a small ozone/uv light after the RO filters will destroy any living organisms without the long-lasting side effects of chlorine.

"Bacteria like every form of life need a few things: A source for carbon (for example, glucose) - An electron donor (water can work here) - An energy source (light can work, but more often than not it's chemical reactions)....So if you just have water there is only the cell itself to serve for these requirements, but under these conditions, a bacteria colony will not thrive."

It is generally algae spores which grow in pure water, and then bacteria feed off the algae. This requires time, light, and heat. It will be evident by a bio-film (slime) on the surface of the container holding the water. This biofilm is found in your underground pipes as well.

 

[rambonerzilla]

When you apply current values, no...of course rain water is not pure. However, for the past 100 million years of known chameleon evolution, the atmosphere has been relatively clear compared to today's standard..save for any major volcanic events.

Your statements are very misleading and half-truthful. Distilled and reverse osmosis water, as with any pure water, are a neutral reading of 7.0 +/- . When they absorb atmospheric impurities (including the process of carbonation in soft drinks) the pH can go down to 5.5 - 5.8...whereas Coca Cola is a reading of 2.52... a far cry from what you are implying. The real facts are: phosphoric acid is added to soda to give it 'bite'. Citric acid is also added as a preservative. Both of these are acids and cause soda to become acidic.

Water is neutral by nature and changes depending on what is added to it. Even temperature can affect pH.....spray hot water? It's more acidic.....but still only down to about 6...which does not mean it *is* acidic. There is a big difference between very, slightly, and moderately.

There are much safer, proven methods to purify water from bacterial growth. If microbes are a concern, adding a small ozone/uv light after the RO filters will destroy any living organisms without the long-lasting side effects of chlorine.

"Bacteria like every form of life need a few things: A source for carbon (for example, glucose) - An electron donor (water can work here) - An energy source (light can work, but more often than not it's chemical reactions)....So if you just have water there is only the cell itself to serve for these requirements, but under these conditions, a bacteria colony will not thrive."

It is generally algae spores which grow in pure water, and then bacteria feed off the algae. This requires time, light, and heat. It will be evident by a bio-film (slime) on the surface of the container holding the water. This biofilm is found in your underground pipes as well.

So far this was the best comment to date on this post

 

[Zen Reptiles]

As I mentioned, in this business I am shocked every single day of the studies coming out proving how bad tap water is. Here's a new study out yesterday showing industrial contaminants in the water of 6,000,000 Americans: http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/09/health/contaminated-water/

Also in the video above: "More than 18,000,000 Americans are getting their drinking water from systems that have violated federal lead rules. Not only does the EPA know about it, they've done almost nothing to enforce their own regulations."

"Failure to properly test water.
Failure to report contamination.
Failure to treat water properly.
In 9/10 cases, EPA took no enforcement action when systems violated the lead and copper rule."

As for the study on the industrial toxins perfluorooctanesulfonic acid and perfluorooctanoic, the EPA tested 63,000 public water systems. There are approx. 160,000 water systems in the USA.

But don't listen to me....watch the video in the link right to the end to see a retired EPA Water Official tell you that he and other EPA officials install filters under their sink at home - which I can guarantee are reverse osmosis, since "Best Available Technology" or "BAT" is the term the EPA uses for Reverse Osmosis systems for removing heavy metals and persistent chemicals.

 

[WAMBO]

I guess we should just start drinking beer or wine.

 

[Decadancin]

I guess we should just start drinking beer or wine.

You mean continue...

 

[Zen Reptiles]

Beer, wine and spirits intake used to be equal to or greater than water intake for most people (including children) for the last 7000 years up until the mid 19th century when chlorine made its first appearance in water treatment after John Snow (yes, his real name) traced a cholera outbreak to contaminated water in Soho, England. The Egyptians drank more beer than water, many European cultures drank more beer, mead & wine than water, Asian cultures drank a lot of beer & rice wine/sake. The Mayflower brought more beer than water on its voyages, and the navy certainly has its own similar history. The Romans believed wine was a daily necessity. And in recent American history: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-31741615

Historically, it was because people would generally get sick from the water - or water flowing into a community could be poisoned by an enemy - so the distillation and boiling of it made it safe, plus the alcohol was like instant energy, and there are antiseptic/antimicrobial properties to alcohol for general good health. It is good they chlorinate the water to prevent outbreaks, but it's bad we are exposed to the chlorine after it's done the job.

Most beverage companies use Reverse Osmosis water for their products, as they know water is the main and most crucial ingredient. Anywhere you buy your tea/coffee and it's always good, is probably because they use RO (Starbucks, fore example, only uses RO water for their beverages).

I hear that joke literally every single day, but there is some truth to the fact that they use pure water to make beer, spirits and wine.

 

[WAMBO]

I'll drink to that!
[I actually will rarely drink alcohol, since I am a hardcore coffee addict].

 

[KapitalJ]

I'll drink to that!
[I actually will rarely drink alcohol, since I am a hardcore coffee addict].

Umm... hello??? Baileys!! @WAMBO