jamest0o0
Chameleon Enthusiast
That's often brought up as a counter point, but they could be eating insects around the ground with different vitamin/mineral content? Just a guess
Why do we use supplements?
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That's often brought up as a counter point, but they could be eating insects around the ground with different vitamin/mineral content? Just a guess
jamest0o0
Chameleon Enthusiast
Another thing, I may be wrong on, but don't the smaller chams live shorter lives? Compare that to the large Parsons that live for years. They have to have something a little different in their diets don't you think?
Some small species do live shorter lives for sure...but is it just diet?
Do you think that all animals could live the same lengths of lives if they lived on a different/better diet?
I think there are other contributing factors/stressors (like predator watch, climate, etc) .
Do you think that all animals could live the same lengths of lives if they lived on a different/better diet?
I think there are other contributing factors/stressors (like predator watch, climate, etc) .
jamest0o0
Chameleon Enthusiast
That's not what I mean. They may be born with most of what they need and the little bit they get from ground-dwelling feeders could be enough to get them through their lifespans. We're talking about natural diets where they're not intended to live as long as captivity for reasons you mention.
Another feeder could be snails? Don't they contain some small amount of retinol, along with plenty of calcium. Roly polys could be another one for ground dwellers.
jamest0o0
Chameleon Enthusiast
I'm not saying that Parsons live for years because of their diets alone, I'm saying they've adapted to their environment and evolved that way for a reason. I can't think of calcium and vitamin rich invert feeders that would be flying around where Parsons dwell in the trees in the numbers they would require. I'm sure they eat tons of bugs, but a couple of vertebrates a month in the wild would make a huge impact on their diet I'd think.
@jamest0o0 said..."We're talking about natural diets where they're not intended to live as long as captivity for reasons you mention"...I'm not talking about captivity.
You said..."a couple of vertebrates a month in the wild would make a huge impact on their diet I'd think"...no doubt.
You said..."a couple of vertebrates a month in the wild would make a huge impact on their diet I'd think"...no doubt.
So the other day, I was thinking why do we use supplements? in the wild they don't get supplements. I hope in the wild they get what they need from their diet and natural light.
Isn't the whole point of chameleon care to mimic the natural ways of the chameleon as much as possible?
We can only do so much. We can't provide the same insects and even if we could how would we feed the insects wht they would eat in the wild?
Is it because they get all the vitamins from natural sunlight that don't occur in t5 bulbs? Sunlight or UVB only allows for D3 production and sunlight or basking bulbs will aid in digestion and thus absorption of nutrients. When using UVB the nutrients still have to be there to be absorbed.
Even so people with outdoor enclosures still supplement?
Even when outdoors were not providing the same insects the chameleons would eat in the wild or feeding the insects we use what the ones the chameleons eat in the wild would have been eating...so we still need to make up for it.
Isn't the whole point of chameleon care to mimic the natural ways of the chameleon as much as possible?
We can only do so much. We can't provide the same insects and even if we could how would we feed the insects wht they would eat in the wild?
Is it because they get all the vitamins from natural sunlight that don't occur in t5 bulbs? Sunlight or UVB only allows for D3 production and sunlight or basking bulbs will aid in digestion and thus absorption of nutrients. When using UVB the nutrients still have to be there to be absorbed.
Even so people with outdoor enclosures still supplement?
Even when outdoors were not providing the same insects the chameleons would eat in the wild or feeding the insects we use what the ones the chameleons eat in the wild would have been eating...so we still need to make up for it.
Klyde O'Scope
Chameleon Enthusiast
Mmm... Let's say I think most animals could live longer lives if they lived under different conditions & circumstances.
In general, I agree.
I think nature usually provides clues, e.g. fecundity and place in the food chain. Sea turtles lay (on average) ~110 eggs per clutch, 2-8 clutches per season, yet only a few reach the sea, and fewer still survive to return & repeat the process. Were they to reproduce in captivity, I have little doubt that their numbers would improve dramatically.
Again—in general—the higher up the food chain an animal is, the fewer offspring per mating, and the longer the natural lifespan. Size also seems to play a role, but predators, climate (change), dwindling habitat... lots of factors & variables, not the least of which is human activity.
I think you are considering two different reproductive strategies. Panthers and especially veiled have a live fast, reproduce quickly and produce large amounts of offspring. Montane species grow slower produce fewer of spring per year and use less resources. If they manage to live longer they could produce similar numbers that actually mature to reproduce. This relates to the amounts of supplement they require. Brumation is another factor that probably extends the parsons life as well.
Klyde O'Scope
Chameleon Enthusiast
I was trying to be inclusive. Lots of factors & variables.
jamest0o0
Chameleon Enthusiast
I feel like I'm not wording what I'm trying to say very well. That's my fault lol. All I was originally getting at is larger species probably utilize minerals/vitamins from vertebrate prey to be able to reach those sizes/lifespans. As for smaller, my guess would be it is 1 of 2 things... there is a feeder in the natural environment that for whatever reason contains calcium and necessary vitamins (worms, snails, etc?). The other possibility that comes to mind is they are born with it and/or get barely enough to get by and reproduce before dying.
I can't believe there is any special gutload out in the wild that is of any significant nutrient content other than meat of some sort. Flies could be feeding on carrion. Same with snails, worms, whatever.
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