Vitamin A , supplements & showers? Paranoid new mommy :)

[lady373]

What is a good way to give Vitamin A to my baby veiled cham? I've only had him in my care for a week but I notice he periodically closes his right eye. I'm worried it may be lack of Vit A but I've read on here that it can be easy to overdose.

Is there any supplements in powder form I could give him at feeding time that has Vit A in it?

Also, I'm giving him the "ExoTerra Calcium" supplement at every feeding. I have yet to give him one with D3 and wonder if it's even necessary since I put him out in the sunlight for most of the day. Eitherway, I do have the calcium with d3 for the winter months when he won't be getting natural sunlight which I will only give him twice a month.

I've read on here that you can shower your cham to help wash things out of their eyes. However, whenever I handle mine (not too often) he gets even more active. I'm a bit unsure how I would go about doing this so I've been misting his cage and he occasionally gets a few drops on him as well.

I may be overreacting, but I am a bit of a parnoid new mom to him. Love him so much, would hate to see anything happen.
Thanks!

 

[Rob G]

Please fill out this form so we can know your husbandry https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/ and also if you have any questions you can pm me and I will gladly answer

 

[Rob G]

sorry i forgot to say that the multivitamin herptivite has the antioxidant beta carotene in it which is converted to vitamin a. (It is controvertial whether any chams can convert it to vit a)

 

[Jordan123]

Actually I read from a guy who was a research scientist specializing in chameleons that they do not convert beta carotene to Vitamin A...but also synthetic sources of Vitamin A had a tendancy to cause Gout.

For what its worth the eggs in the female crickets you feed em have the bioavailable form of vitamin A in good density... though relative to the "baby" age i dont know if ur using crickets that old.. but if you
gutload the crickets properly with foods like Kale...etc they will convert vitamin A for the chameleon

this is just what Ive read so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Jordan123]

dang Rob you beat me to the finish about the betacarotene...

 

[lady373]

Thanks so much!
Its funny because I was looking for the Ask For Help template to fill everything in but was having a brain freeze and couldn't find it. I'll use it from now on.
I've been gutloading my crickets with some commercial gut loading food but will definitely take in both your suggestions.
Thank you

 

[Ace]

yeah fill the form out?

what do you use for lights, posting pictures of your cham and enlcosire also help us to help you

 

[kinyonga]

Jordan123...do you have a web site address for a paper that talks about gout being caused by vitamin A synthetic forms?

There are two forms of vitamin A used....beta carotene (prOformed) that has to be converted as needed and that some chameleons may not be able to convert. Then there is prEformed vitamin A (acetate, retinol, etc.) that is ready to go and can build up in the chameleon's system and lead to health issues....so the prEformed vitamin A you have to be quite careful with so that you don't overdo it.

Vitamin A also is somewhat antagonistic to D3 and may prevent it from doing its job and lead to MBD so they need to be in balance. Phosphorus, calcium, D3 and vitamin A are all important players in bone health and in other systems in the chameleon and need to be in balance as well. When balancing them you need to look at what you are feeding the chameleon, what you are gutloading feeding the insects with and what supplementing you are doing.

This being said...there are supplements such as Reptivite (powder) that contain prEformed vitamin A. There are also capsules of vitamin A made for humans that you can dab on an insect and feed it to the chameleon...but be careful. Its not hard to overdo it. Some of the capsules may contain D3 as well which IMHO complicates things.

Here's information that I post frequently that helps to explain supplementing, gutloading, etc....
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

A wide variety of insects that have been well fed and gutloaded should be fed to it. At that size you only need to feed it every two or three days. Feed it enough that it doesn't get fat (and, of course, doesn't get thin either).

Since many of the feeder insects we use in captivity have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium). Not sure how to tell you to dust WC insects if that is what you will be doing.

If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.

Here are some good sites for you to read...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.

 

[lady373]

Thanks so much for the help.
As requested here is full info.
Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Male Baby Veiled. Approximately almost 3 months old. 2 1/2 months old when I got him. Have had him in my care for 1 week 1 day as of today.
Handling - I've handled him a total of about three times. First when I put him in his cage. Second when I re-potted the hibiscus and took him out for it and today when I got a close up look at his eye. He's very friendly and doesn't hiss or anything.
Feeding - Feeding small crickets that I gutload with commercial cricket gutloading food. Varies around 10-12 crickets a day. Feed him 5 when he wakes up and I take him outside. Then I feed him three more when I get home from work and finally the remaning 2-4 an hour or two before I bring him insdie to sleep.
Supplements - At each feeding I am calcium coating the crickets with ExoTerra Calcium. I have calcium w/d3 as well but have not used it especially since he is getting natural sunlight.
Watering - I have a drip system, it drips water into the cage but isnt the commercial dripper that has the long stem go inside the cage. I mist about 3-5 times a day when I'm home for about 2 minutes each time and I haven't seen him drink.
Fecal Description - Never been tested for parasites. First few days the droppings were solid brown and white. After I re-potted his hibiscus' into a larger pot I haven't seen any droppings (could be camouflaging with the dirt?)
History - None that I know of.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Screen cage. 16x16x30 with three hibiscus potted plants and a very small umbrella tree so he has a sturdier branch to climb on. Also artificial branch I got at petsmart.
Lighting - Began with a coil 5.0 reptiglo light and a reccomended 100 watt basking light. Had it on for 12 hr/12 hr schedule and immediately took out the coil bulb when I found out it caused eye problems. He now has no artificial lighting because he's out in the sun every day for around 12 hours and comes inside and sleeps for 12-13 hours. Basking red light 100watt used to be on temperature regulator so if at night it dropped below 73 it would turn on to heat the cage. NO LONGER USING NIGHT LIGHT EITHER.
Temperature - Overall temperature rang is high 70s (78) to low 80s. Lowest overnight temp is low 70s or high 60s. I measure these with a thermometer.
Humidity - Have not measured humidity levels but I spray 3-5 times a day for 2 minutes each time.
Plants - Yes. 3 hibiscus. one small umbrella tree.
Placement - Cage is located in family-room area. Generally low-traffic while everyone is at work. Only time people are there is to watch movie occasionally.
Location - San Diego.

Current Problem - Noticed before I took his coil bulb out that he started to close one eye. That same day I took the coil bubl out and brought him outside. He was much happier outside and was doing better but still occasionally closing his eye. Today after I got home from work I notice that his eye is closed completely and he is only having his left eye open. I notice he still eats and is active, moves around a lot and is green in color but his eye is closed. I don't know what to do about this and would appreciate any help. I am attaching a picture of the day I first got him and two of him now (his eye closed) so you can compare. I'm also attaching a picture I took of him sleeping last night of the eye he won't open today. Please help.

 

[Rob G]

Looks pretty good but I would suggest maybe a 40 or 60 watt heat bulb. There needs to be a heat gradient in the cage. So around low 80's for a basking spot and low 70's for the ambient temp. He is friendly now but just wait till that 5-6 month mark lol. And lastly you should probly use a multivitamin about twice a month a good one is herptivite and you can get it at most pet stores. Btw, cute cham and how did you fit 4 potted plants in a 16x16x30? Lol

 

[lady373]

Thanks!
pretty wide pot lol. they're not huge hibiscus either, they're all small.

unfortunately i noticed him rubbing his eye on the fake branch a few minutes ago. I also saw him eat and poop so thats a good sign.
I may take him to the vet. I don't like him rubbing his eye :/

 

[mwebb]

No

sorry i forgot to say that the multivitamin herptivite has the antioxidant beta carotene in it which is converted to vitamin a. (It is controvertial whether any chams can convert it to vit a)

it doesn't, I have tryed all the sups with it and have had no luck.

 

[kinyonga]

Mwebb said..."it doesn't, I have tryed all the sups with it and have had no luck."...no luck with what??

 

[Jordan123]

Jordan123...do you have a web site address for a paper that talks about gout being caused by vitamin A synthetic forms?

There are two forms of vitamin A used....beta carotene (prOformed) that has to be converted as needed and that some chameleons may not be able to convert. Then there is prEformed vitamin A (acetate, retinol, etc.) that is ready to go and can build up in the chameleon's system and lead to health issues....so the prEformed vitamin A you have to be quite careful with so that you don't overdo it.

Vitamin A also is somewhat antagonistic to D3 and may prevent it from doing its job and lead to MBD so they need to be in balance. Phosphorus, calcium, D3 and vitamin A are all important players in bone health and in other systems in the chameleon and need to be in balance as well. When balancing them you need to look at what you are feeding the chameleon, what you are gutloading feeding the insects with and what supplementing you are doing.

This being said...there are supplements such as Reptivite (powder) that contain prEformed vitamin A. There are also capsules of vitamin A made for humans that you can dab on an insect and feed it to the chameleon...but be careful. Its not hard to overdo it. Some of the capsules may contain D3 as well which IMHO complicates things.

Here's information that I post frequently that helps to explain supplementing, gutloading, etc....
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

A wide variety of insects that have been well fed and gutloaded should be fed to it. At that size you only need to feed it every two or three days. Feed it enough that it doesn't get fat (and, of course, doesn't get thin either).

Since many of the feeder insects we use in captivity have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium). Not sure how to tell you to dust WC insects if that is what you will be doing.

If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.

Here are some good sites for you to read...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.

I remembered where I got that vitamin A reference from...

Chameleons
Their Care and Breeding
by Linda J. Davison

One quote even says... "Vitamin A should be avoided like the plague... Beta Carotene has replaced this lizard killer in several products"

However they didnt seem to know of the research done showing chameleons do not convert beta carotene....the final conclusion was in my opinion to feed the roaches or crickets betacarotene rich veggies and let them convert it to Vitamin A and let the chameleon receive it that way.

I dont remember the exact section that mentioned it causing Gout specifically but I am sure I read it in this book.

actually here is another reference to it..

http://www.reptilechannel.com/media/care-sheets/jacksons-chameleon.aspx.pdf final page about 1/3rd the way down...

 

[lady373]

Thanks so much.
I'm definitely taking the gutloading approach. I fed some commercial gutloading food to my crickets tonight in combination with carrots so that when I feed Pascal tomorrow morning he's got some Vitamin A in there too.
I really appreciate all the tips and advice. I'm hoping that in a few days he'll be back to normal

 

[kinyonga]

After I asked, I found the link you posted, Jordan123...but thanks for the additional information too!

 

[lady373]

Just thought I'd let you guys know that Pascal woke up today with both eyes open and hasn't closed either one so far! He ate six crickets this morning that were fed carrots last night so hopefully he'll stay as healthy as he looks right now! Thanks so much, I really appreciate the tips and advice from everyone. I'm so glad I found this forum!