very sick veiled chameleon

[roula]

Hi all,

My boyfriend was driving near our city when he found a small veiled chameleon crossing the highway. He brought it home since it was in the risk of getting ran over. This was couple of months ago (12 Oct 2010). We live in Syria and Chameleons are not a usual pet, we searched online a lot and then got a big birds cage and customized it to be a good place to put the chameleon in, and we were keeping the cage on the roof (natural sun, air, etc..) during the day and inside the house during the night.

After few days of having the chameleon we went and searched for a vet who can help us with food, supplements, etc.. but the first vet we went to didn't know anything about chameleons, and he sent us to another one who supposedly knows more. After driving for 2 hours and getting lost we eventually found the vet. He examined it and told us that it's a male chameleon (we actually told him that we thought it was a male from looking online and he just confirmed our opinion), and then he told us that it's been eating because he can feel things like lumps in her tummy.

After one month, we discovered that this vet was just plain stupid, and an asshole too not to admit that he doesn't know what he's talking about. Because our chameleon (name was Kamileo all that past time) laid eggs! So we figured it's a female (name changed to Kamilia!) and the lumps he felt in her tummy were the eggs she was holding :S

It was quite a shock because if we knew it was a female we would've prepared sand for her to dig and lay her eggs. Instead, the poor thing escaped her cage one night and disappeared in our messy room. We couldn't find her for around 2 days, and after she appeared from under the couch. We put her back in the cage on the roof, and few minutes later my boyfriend came with a small egg in his hand, and told me that he found this one egg in the cage. We searched online and it was similar to chameleon's eggs, and we found that they lay dozens of them, so we looked under the couch and found another 20 eggs. So total of 21 eggs.

Kamilia looked very skinny after laying the eggs, thin like a paper! And she seemed just fine, eating drinking moving and everything. This was around 12 Nov 2010.

Since then I've been looking and trying to determine if there are any eggs left in her but it doesn't appear to be any.

Couple of days ago we took her to our relative farm, hoping to put her in the grass where there are lots of bugs that she can hunt, and we thought it would be nice for her to be free for a while in a natural place. After few minutes we noticed she was digging in the grass, so my boyfriend looked closer, and found her tongue all out. He took her out of the grass and her tongue stayed out dangling in the air, with dirt and stuff stuck to it, and the tip looked a little bit swollen, I don't know if it was naturally like this, but it looked strange and scary.

We got water and cleaned her tongue, and left her alone for a while hoping that she'll pull it back in, but she didn't. So we tried to help her and managed to put her tongue back in her mouth.

Since that time (couple of days ago) she's very sick, not moving, not eating, not doing anything except sleeping. We tried to feed her and give her water but she wouldn't want to eat. We managed to get some water in her mouth but when we put bugs in her mouth she wouldn't chew or swallow them. First time we put a bug she was rubbing her head on the floor trying to take it out, and the second time she just kept the bug in her mouth doing nothing so we removed it.

As you can notice there is no hope for a vet in this country. We looked online and got from the normal pharmacy some calcium, vitamins (A&B), and a solution for dehydration. We soaked her in the dehydration solution and made a liquid mix of the vitamins, calcium and dehydration solution and put a drop in her mouth. She moved a little more after that but then again went back to sleep. We're also putting her in the sun so she can get vitamin D or whatever is good for her from the sun.

She seems like she will die I don't know what else to do. I don't trust the vets here anymore after this stupid vet told us everything wrong. And I don't know if she was bitten by some bug in her tongue, did she lose her tongue like I read in some websites, did she swallow it or not, I can't see clearly when I open her mouth if she still have a tongue or not, and I don't know if this was from the eggs in case there was some left in her.

If she was bitten by a bug would she heal? It could be a wasp or any other bug that she tried to eat while she was in the farm on the grass. Or I don't know what it could be.

Does anyone have any suggestions? Should I provide more info or a current photo of her? Please help if you know anything about this or have previous experience with this.

Thanks and sorry for the long post.

 

[roula]

I also want to ask if the liquid mix that we made seems fine, and should we give her from it more often, twice a day or once or more? We also got antibiotics for children (liquid) but then we noticed it has penicillin in it so we didn't give it to her. Does anyone know if it's ok or if we should or shouldn't?

 

[Dawniegirl]

Sorry to hear she's not doing well. I am a newbie myself & your situation is way outta my ballpark but there are a lot of knowledgeable people one here who might have some suggestions for you. The only thing I can tell you is did you try a search on here? If not, try to put things in there like "tongue problem" or maybe "eggs not all out" or just "tongue" "eggs", etc. Until maybe you find something that might help you til you get some replies back. Good luck & hope she gets through these problems.

Also other members are gonna suggest you fill this out https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/ As best as you can. So if you could copy & past w/ answers you will be one step ahead.

 

[laurie]

Hello & welcome to the forum. First a picture would be very helpful. Most likely
she has laid the eggs if she is very thin you would have seen the eggs.

Now about the tongue problem, she may have tried to eat the dirt from where she was, or as you said got a bug that bit her, it is just hard to know. If I were trying to feed her liquids I would mash up bugs or put them in a blender like I do, then strain them, to get out the legs and big pieces, add a few drops of liquid calcium and drip it in her mouth. Also it is very easy to over load a chameleon on vitamin A, so I would not be adding it to the mix. You do need to try to see if her tongue is in her mouth or if she has swallowed it. Given that you have no vets who work with chameleons, I am not sure what can be done for the tongue problem. I don't know but I would think if she swallowed it she would have choked to death. Let us know how it goes & good luck.

 

[roula]

Sorry to hear she's not doing well. I am a newbie myself & your situation is way outta my ballpark but there are a lot of knowledgeable people one here who might have some suggestions for you. The only thing I can tell you is did you try a search on here? If not, try to put things in there like "tongue problem" or maybe "eggs not all out" or just "tongue" "eggs", etc. Until maybe you find something that might help you til you get some replies back. Good luck & hope she gets through these problems.

Also other members are gonna suggest you fill this out https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/ As best as you can. So if you could copy & past w/ answers you will be one step ahead.

Dawniegirl thank you for your concerns, I actually searched in the forums about tongue and other things, I read many posts and that was where we got most of the things we're doing to her now like the vitamins and using the syringe to feed her the liquid mix, but mostly we had to improvise because there are no reptiles vets or products in this country.. So I was just looking for assurance that what we're doing is not hurting her if it's not helping her.

Oh and thanks also for the link about how to ask for help I will check it and do as u suggested..

 

[roula]

Hello & welcome to the forum. First a picture would be very helpful. Most likely
she has laid the eggs if she is very thin you would have seen the eggs.

Now about the tongue problem, she may have tried to eat the dirt from where she was, or as you said got a bug that bit her, it is just hard to know. If I were trying to feed her liquids I would mash up bugs or put them in a blender like I do, then strain them, to get out the legs and big pieces, add a few drops of liquid calcium and drip it in her mouth. Also it is very easy to over load a chameleon on vitamin A, so I would not be adding it to the mix. You do need to try to see if her tongue is in her mouth or if she has swallowed it. Given that you have no vets who work with chameleons, I am not sure what can be done for the tongue problem. I don't know but I would think if she swallowed it she would have choked to death. Let us know how it goes & good luck.

Hi laurie, thank you for your info and for the warning about vitamin A, I remember now after you mentioned this that I read it somewhere, so we'll redo the mix without the vitamin A. Also I'll do as you suggested about the bugs thanks for the instructions.

I will post a photo soon, and I will try to take a photo for inside her mouth but I'm not sure I'll be able to since she won't open her mouth easily we're managing to open it a bit to put the syringe but I don't want to force her more..

Meanwhile I found this link that has a picture very similar to what her tongue looked like when it was dangling out of her mouth at the beginning of the problem here's the link: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Reptiles-704/2009/8/Chameleon-tongue.htm you can click on the photo there to see it big.

Last time we were able to look inside her mouth we couldn't see the tongue, we just saw around 1 inch something similar to a bone.. I don't know what this is and I don't know how it should normally look like.

Thanks again for the info.

 

[roula]

I was also wondering, how long does it take a chameleon to have problems from lack of calcium? Does it take few weeks or months, or more than that?

 

[roula]

Here are the info a suggested in the link that Dawniegirl pointed me to:

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - The species: Veiled Cham, sex: female, and age of your chameleon: unknown. How long has it been in your care: since 12 October 2010
• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon: Couple of times a day.
• Feeding - What are you feeding your cham: bugs from the natural environment, she hunts them from around the cage. What amount: I don't know how much she used to hunt. What is the schedule: day time her own schedule. How are you gut-loading your feeders: not doing this. But recently caught grasshoppers from the nature.
• Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule: none since she was caught from the wild and she was still getting her food from the nature like she naturally does.
• Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use: cup dripping from the roof of her cage, and spraying the cage with water few times a day, and keeping water inside the cage in a cup also. How often and how long to you mist: I'm not sure if this means misting the chameleon itself then done this only couple of times since we got her. Do you see your chameleon drinking yea many times from the water drops on leaves.
• Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings: shades of green darker and lighter. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites: no never.
• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you: I mentioned in my original post.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) Screen, customized from bird cage. What are the dimensions: around 50cm tall, then 50x80 cm i think.
• Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule: natural sun/day light, normal day hours.
• Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps? she's kept in the nature during the day and in room temp during night since it gets cold outside.
• Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity? no humidity control, he's in her natural country.
• Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind? yes there are live plants but i dont know the kind, but i do know that she could encounter this kind in her natural habitat.
• Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? at the roof during day and in room during night, not in a high place.
• Location - Where are you geographically located: Damascus, Syria, where no reptiles vets or products are available.

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about: described in my original post.

 

[Dawniegirl]

Hello & welcome to the forum. First a picture would be very helpful. Most likely
she has laid the eggs if she is very thin you would have seen the eggs.

Now about the tongue problem, she may have tried to eat the dirt from where she was, or as you said got a bug that bit her, it is just hard to know. If I were trying to feed her liquids I would mash up bugs or put them in a blender like I do, then strain them, to get out the legs and big pieces, add a few drops of liquid calcium and drip it in her mouth. Also it is very easy to over load a chameleon on vitamin A, so I would not be adding it to the mix. You do need to try to see if her tongue is in her mouth or if she has swallowed it. Given that you have no vets who work with chameleons, I am not sure what can be done for the tongue problem. I don't know but I would think if she swallowed it she would have choked to death. Let us know how it goes & good luck.

Yuck ... blending the crickets. Looks like I will be buying another blender for that just in case! I like to be prepared. I surely won't be blending in mine. We mom's and dads gotta do a lot for our lil ones.

 

[laurie]

Yuck ... blending the crickets. Looks like I will be buying another blender for that just in case! I like to be prepared. I surely won't be blending in mine. We mom's and dads gotta do a lot for our lil ones.

Yes I keep a small one just for my chameleons, hubby would have a heart attack if I ever used our stuff for the chams.

 

[Dawniegirl]

Yes I keep a small one just for my chameleons, hubby would have a heart attack if I ever used our stuff for the chams.

Lol So would mine

 

[kinyonga]

From the sounds of it, she no longer has her tongue. If it is gone then where it separated from that bone that you can see in her mouth would be like an open wound. It could be that its painful or it could also be that she is developing an infection because of the tongue coming off.

She really needs a vet...but I understand that its hard to find one who knows about chameleons.

Can you post a picture of her with the mouth open and the bone showing??

When the tongue is gone, chameleons can no longer eat the way they are used to and need to be hand fed until they learn to chase after the insects.

If its really a veiled, then she would be able to eat babyfood (veggies or fruit) for a while to give the tongue area a chance to heal....and I would recommend softer insects for a while too if possible.

Please be aware that I am not a vet and am just telling you this from experience.

 

[roula]

kinyonga, thanks for your tips, i never knew that veiled can eat babyfood, i wish we knew this earlier, but it's good to know in all cases...

unfortunately Kamilia passed away this morning (((((((((((((((((((((((((((( i dont know if there was anything to be done to her even if there was a vet, the reason seems that she got injured when she was in that farm i can't believe that she died not from being in a cage but from being in her natural area.. and we thought we're doing a good thing by letting her run free for a while.. we're sooo sad and depressed.. we were so attached to her.. RIP Kamilia hope ur in a better place now.. and sorry we couldn't take a better care of u