veiled still sick after months of tests/meds

[thertz]

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - 2.5 y/o female veiled (I've had her a little over 2 years)
• Handling - Rarely since she's been sick, as I don't want to stress her out even more.
• Feeding - Currently: Worms only, sprinkled with calcium or multivitamin. Normally: I gutload crickets mostly (spinach, sweet potato, carrots, Repashy insect gutload, etc) and sprinkle calcium (everyday), D3 (bi-monthly), and multivitamin (monthly) and occasional worms.
• Supplements - Shown above. Less calcium now though as her bloodwork showed high levels and vet suggested cutting down.
• Watering - Mistking sprays for 5-7 min 3x a day, and dripper all day. I see her drink. However, her skin has been dehydrated looking for months and I've taken her in for fluid injections and occasionally give her small doses of water orally.
• Fecal Description - Totally normal. Regularly take in samples for fecal testing. Last test was a couple days ago (clear), the one before that was a month ago (also clear).
• History - She came with parasites that took 3 months to get rid of, but was fine after that. ***She has never laid eggs or shown any interest in laying eggs. I have a pot in the cage with 12" deep damp soil with plenty of foliage surrounding it for privacy. Vet has never felt eggs, and didn't see anything on x-rays**

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - 2x2x4 Dragon Strand clear side enclosure with one screen side and screen top. Screen bottom with drainage tray underneath.
• Lighting - Arcadia T5 UVB and fluorescent tubes (dawn-dusk), 150W ceramic heat emitter (24/7), 125W red heat lamp (dawn-dusk).
• Temperature - about 65-90 range measured with both a meter in the cage as well as infrared thermometer.
• -Humidity - 40-60% meter in cage
• Plants - pothos, schefflera
• Placement - top of cage about 7.5 ft off ground, low traffic
• Location - pacific northwest

Current Problem - She is very weak and just now fell off her branch. What I have done so far: fecal exams (negative), vet visits: x-rays, exam, bloodwork. x-rays indicated a GI issue >>metronidozole and metaclopramide, and bloodwork indicated liver issue >> Oxbow Carnivore Care gavage diet for 7 days (her appetite decreased very suddenly right before vet visit, and ate no worms during the week of prescribed diet). She slowly began to eat worms on her own. she has had a couple crickets but is just too weak to hunt and it seems like she struggles to extend her tongue, and doesn't always come back with a worm. Its been about a moth and a half since that round of meds, and her appetite is back to normal, but she is weak, wobbly, and i can't stand to think of her suffering. Her skin is still a bit wrinkly, despite constant hydration. Other than that, her bones are strong, she is alert during the day/sleeps at night, poops normally. Her abdomen had also been distended but has gotten better. Vet had me start her on amoxicillin 2 days ago.

I am in a constant state of stress and don't know what more I can do at this point. She seems ok after her fall but I am worried she will fall again, and I'm sure she has before and I haven't seen it. Has anyone had this issue and bounced back from it? I have never once felt at ease taking care of her- I always feel like something is wrong or about to go wrong. I wish we at least knew what was wrong with her. This trial and error thing is painful.

Thank you for at least listening <3
--------------

 

[carol5208]

I really dont have any other suggestions for you besides what you are doing. Just curious what the "GI" issue was exactly? Sounds like she has been through an awful lot snd I think sometimes it just takes its toll. At some point you may just have to decide what is best and if putting her through further testing and meds is worth it. I had a Panther cham that cut his foot and ended up with gout from kidney failure from all the meds. Trying to wrap the foot, back and forth to the vet. .this went on for 7 months until I made the decision to put him down. Wish I could be of more help

 

[thertz]

I really dont have any other suggestions for you besides what you are doing. Just curious what the "GI" issue was exactly? Sounds like she has been through an awful lot snd I think sometimes it just takes its toll. At some point you may just have to decide what is best and if putting her through further testing and meds is worth it. I had a Panther cham that cut his foot and ended up with gout from kidney failure from all the meds. Trying to wrap the foot, back and forth to the vet. .this went on for 7 months until I made the decision to put him down. Wish I could be of more help

The x-ray showed her GI tract was inflamed. As far as the liver issue goes, the vet said there is really no way to know what caused it, same explanation with the GI prob pretty much. He isn’t a reptile specialist but said he did some research and it looks like it’s always a guessing game for these health probs with chameleons.

Thank you for your story- it always helps to hear personal experiences. Sorry to hear about your panther

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."Less calcium now though as her bloodwork showed high levels"...this is perplexing since the tongue and weakness and falling are indications of MBD but i don't know if the high blood calcium means that she's not absorbing the calcium because perhaps she has kidney issues or what would be the reason ....but you'd need to check on that with your vet. Also what is she getting in the way of prEformed (retinol, retinyl, etc.) vitamin A? (Beta carotene and other plant forms are proformed).

One of the photos you posted of her in another thread looked like she might have a slight sign of MBD in her left arm...could you post a photo of her from the side that isn't in shadows please.

 

[Darthroastcoffee]

Make sure also she is able to bask under her lamp keep the basking temperature on the hi side like 85-89 make sure she is able to get to it during the day. It allows everything flow a little better in the body it might help out. my female was acting a little week I put a red halogen 25 watt at night in a corner so it don’t get to hot and she seems to be doing much better maybe that might help.

 

[thertz]

You said..."Less calcium now though as her bloodwork showed high levels"...this is perplexing since the tongue and weakness and falling are indications of MBD but i don't know if the high blood calcium means that she's not absorbing the calcium because perhaps she has kidney issues or what would be the reason ....but you'd need to check on that with your vet. Also what is she getting in the way of prEformed (retinol, retinyl, etc.) vitamin A? (Beta carotene and other plant forms are proformed).

One of the photos you posted of her in another thread looked like she might have a slight sign of MBD in her left arm...could you post a photo of her from the side that isn't in shadows please.

I thought that too but the vet said the x-rays showed strong bones, and kidneys looked fine. The very first vet I saw basically said it's impossible to over-do it on calcium, but this vet, after doing bloodwork, said the levels were unusually high, and since I had been using a calcium supplement everyday, he said just reduce it to every-other day (also calcium in gutload). I'm not sure about the vitamin A. It is in the Repashy gutload I use for the crickets, but I'm in the dark about the vitamin A info- from the little I've read there seems to be a slight ongoing debate.

 

[thertz]

You said..."Less calcium now though as her bloodwork showed high levels"...this is perplexing since the tongue and weakness and falling are indications of MBD but i don't know if the high blood calcium means that she's not absorbing the calcium because perhaps she has kidney issues or what would be the reason ....but you'd need to check on that with your vet. Also what is she getting in the way of prEformed (retinol, retinyl, etc.) vitamin A? (Beta carotene and other plant forms are proformed).

One of the photos you posted of her in another thread looked like she might have a slight sign of MBD in her left arm...could you post a photo of her from the side that isn't in shadows please.

 

[HerbertHancock]

I noticed that you keep your ceramic heat emitter on 24/7? How cold is your house at night? They need a temp drop at night. This could also contribute to the dehydrated look you mentioned. They tolerate it pretty cold, as low as 50 to my knowledge. Unless you can see your breath at night you should have no heat/red light at night. Also, you say worms only right now, right? What type? Mealworms are not a sufficient staple however, silk, supers, hornworms, phoenix (and I'm probably missing one or two) are good staple feeders. I know these might seem like small details but worth examining!

 

[kinyonga]

You're showing me the right arm...it was the left I wanted to see!

Colored lights are not recommended to be used day (or night) for chameleons.
Spinach binds calcium so don't use it much... dandelion greens, kale, endive, collards, squash, zucchini, sweet red pepper, etc are better choices.
How many insects do you feed her a week and how heavily do you dust them?

 

[thertz]

I noticed that you keep your ceramic heat emitter on 24/7? How cold is your house at night? They need a temp drop at night. This could also contribute to the dehydrated look you mentioned. They tolerate it pretty cold, as low as 50 to my knowledge. Unless you can see your breath at night you should have no heat/red light at night. Also, you say worms only right now, right? What type? Mealworms are not a sufficient staple however, silk, supers, hornworms, phoenix (and I'm probably missing one or two) are good staple feeders. I know these might seem like small details but worth examining!

It is 100% dark overnight. It gets super cold in the winter but it's finally starting to warm up somewhat now. The temp definitely drops at night, drastically during the winter, so I have to change lamps yearlong to adjust to room temp. I didn't know that they can handle it that cold so I'll take your advice and see if I can reduce temperature a little during both day and night and see if that helps with hydration. I have just always been way more worried about her being too cold than being too hot, especially since she has a tall cage and can crawl down under the foliage when she wants.

I've been feeding mealworms and occasional wax worms. I'll have to check different pet stores to find some others- thanks for the tip! I've almost always fed her crickets with good gutload and I didn't think we'd still be on worms-only at this point. Every detail counts, thanks!!

 

[thertz]

o

You're showing me the right arm...it was the left I wanted to see!

Colored lights are not recommended to be used day (or night) for chameleons.
Spinach binds calcium so don't use it much... dandelion greens, kale, endive, collards, squash, zucchini, sweet red pepper, etc are better choices.
How many insects do you feed her a week and how heavily do you dust them?

my bad! here is the left side I gotta run but can get a photo of the back left later. no more spinach thanks! I put the insects in a container and a couple pinches of vitamin powder and shake them around. 5-10 large crickets every other day. currently feeding worms 7small or 4 large at a time (each day) and I wait to see how much she can eat. I will also switch the bulb. It is always 100% dark at night but I did not know that color was bad for them, thanks!

 

[kinyonga]

The left arm looks ok...I thought it was just the photo and it was....so that's good!

 

[thertz]

The left arm looks ok...I thought it was just the photo and it was....so that's good!

I just found the photo you were looking at- you're right it totally looked bowed out at first glance but was definitely the shadows! Thanks for checking

 

[kinyonga]

You're welcome.
She actually looks quite good in all the photos you posted.
Please keep us updated on her progress.

 

[Rookie1911]

I just wanted to say I'm going through the same thing with my girl the endless vet visits the not knowing the critical care and syringes and now needles the constant stress for the last 6months and I just wanted to say "I Hear you" and commend you for trying because we r not vets or reptile experts and we r doing everything possible to help these poor things and it hard. I hope you get it all figured out and I hope your chameleon has a speedy recovery.

 

[thertz]

I just wanted to say I'm going through the same thing with my girl the endless vet visits the not knowing the critical care and syringes and now needles the constant stress for the last 6months and I just wanted to say "I Hear you" and commend you for trying because we r not vets or reptile experts and we r doing everything possible to help these poor things and it hard. I hope you get it all figured out and I hope your chameleon has a speedy recovery.

Thank you so much that is so incredibly kind. I truly appreciate the support and I hope your girl recovers soon as well <3