I have an 8 month old male veiled chameleon. We have had him since October 2009. For about the last two weeks he has been hanging upside down supporting his weight with his back legs and tail. He will spend probably 95% of his time like this. He has also been spending a lot of time towards the bottom of his cage (away from the heat lamp). I took him to the vet last week and still don't have any answers. We are treating him profilactively for worms/parasites and I was given Emeraid II solution to help maintain hydration/calories. He is still eating, but much smaller amounts. Any ideas as to why he's behaving this way?
Veiled chameleon hanging upside down and lethargic
- Thread starter LouieK
- Start date
Elizadolots
New Member
You should click on the "how to ask for help" thread at the top of this forum. There's a list of things that are important in chameleon health there. Copy that, paste it into a reply and type your responses. Be as clear as possible. When it asks for information on poop, what is most important is how the poop actually looks. Frequency of pooping is good info, but not as vital as "what does the poop look like?"
The single most helpful thing for getting help--after giving that information--is take and post some pictures. Try to get pictures that show the enclosure as well as multiple views of the animal. If you have older pictures of him before he started doing this, include those but make it clear these are "before" shots.
As you are new, you may not be able to post pictures yet, so you will want to use PHOTOBUCKET or FLICKR or any other online photo sharing site. Upload them there, post links or images here. PM me if you need help with that.
I hope things will be okay. I'm not knowledgeable about veileds so don't want to speculate, but there are true experts here who will want to help you. Providing that information and pictures will make that easier for them.
The single most helpful thing for getting help--after giving that information--is take and post some pictures. Try to get pictures that show the enclosure as well as multiple views of the animal. If you have older pictures of him before he started doing this, include those but make it clear these are "before" shots.
As you are new, you may not be able to post pictures yet, so you will want to use PHOTOBUCKET or FLICKR or any other online photo sharing site. Upload them there, post links or images here. PM me if you need help with that.
I hope things will be okay. I'm not knowledgeable about veileds so don't want to speculate, but there are true experts here who will want to help you. Providing that information and pictures will make that easier for them.
Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Approximately 8 month old male veiled chameleon - have had since 10/09 (got when he was just a baby)
Handling - Hardly ever until recently. We had to take him to the vet and now needs to take some medication so gets handled about twice a day for a few minutes
Feeding - When he was eating decent (about two weeks ago) he would get about a dozen 5/8" crickets that were gut loaded with commercial cricket food containing calcium. He would eat every day in the morning. The crickets would get dusted with calcium/D3 every couple days. He has had a couple wax worms this week as well (it was the first time we tried wax worms)
Supplements - Crickets are dusted with a calcium/D3 powder every couple days
Watering - There is a dripper that is one all the time and I mist his cage twice daily. I have seen him drink in the past but not recently.
Fecal Description - Currently droppings are slimy brown and there is very minimal urate. The other day I did notice that there was some orange in the urate. He was never tested for parasites/worms but is currently being treated profilactively for them (as of 4/5/10). He's got two more doses of meds to take for that. He is also getting 0.5ml of Emeraid II solution a day to help with hydration and calories so not sure if this is what is causing the slimy appearance.
History - Everything seemed pretty normal up until a couple weeks ago.
Cage Info:
Cage Type - Screen cage about 2'x2'2.5'.
Lighting - There is a 75 watt infrared heat lamp on 24 hours that sits above the top of his enclosure. Recently I have also added a second infared bulb along the side of his enclosure (recommended by the vet) to get the temp up in his cage to help with digestion. He also has a 13 watt UVB bulb that is on the side of his cage that is on about 13 hours a day (it's on a timer and the bulb was just replaced last week).
Temperature - The average temperature is about 75 degrees with it about 65 on the floor and about 95 in the basking area. There is a thermometer on the side of the enclosure.
Humidity - Not sure about humidity. I do mist the enclosure twice a day.
Placement - The cage is in a spare bedroom on a dresser. Not by any windows. From the floor to the top of his cage is probably about 5.5 feet.
Location - Oshkosh, WI
Current Problem - The last few weeks he has been eating considerably less, not drinking (at least I am not seeing it) and has been hanging upside down or on his side a lot. He will hang by his back two legs and tail or use brances to rest on (sometimes then falling over). His grip is strong in all four feet and he can climb (as I have seen him). He is spending a lot of time very close to the floor of his enlcosure and doesn't change colors anymore. He looks like he is stressed out (color wise). He does react by hissing when you try to pick him up to give him his medicine but he will sometimes sleep during the day now too.
Any ideas as to what is happening would be appreciated. I am terrified everytime I go in to check on him that I might not like what I see.
Your Chameleon - Approximately 8 month old male veiled chameleon - have had since 10/09 (got when he was just a baby)
Handling - Hardly ever until recently. We had to take him to the vet and now needs to take some medication so gets handled about twice a day for a few minutes
Feeding - When he was eating decent (about two weeks ago) he would get about a dozen 5/8" crickets that were gut loaded with commercial cricket food containing calcium. He would eat every day in the morning. The crickets would get dusted with calcium/D3 every couple days. He has had a couple wax worms this week as well (it was the first time we tried wax worms)
Supplements - Crickets are dusted with a calcium/D3 powder every couple days
Watering - There is a dripper that is one all the time and I mist his cage twice daily. I have seen him drink in the past but not recently.
Fecal Description - Currently droppings are slimy brown and there is very minimal urate. The other day I did notice that there was some orange in the urate. He was never tested for parasites/worms but is currently being treated profilactively for them (as of 4/5/10). He's got two more doses of meds to take for that. He is also getting 0.5ml of Emeraid II solution a day to help with hydration and calories so not sure if this is what is causing the slimy appearance.
History - Everything seemed pretty normal up until a couple weeks ago.
Cage Info:
Cage Type - Screen cage about 2'x2'2.5'.
Lighting - There is a 75 watt infrared heat lamp on 24 hours that sits above the top of his enclosure. Recently I have also added a second infared bulb along the side of his enclosure (recommended by the vet) to get the temp up in his cage to help with digestion. He also has a 13 watt UVB bulb that is on the side of his cage that is on about 13 hours a day (it's on a timer and the bulb was just replaced last week).
Temperature - The average temperature is about 75 degrees with it about 65 on the floor and about 95 in the basking area. There is a thermometer on the side of the enclosure.
Humidity - Not sure about humidity. I do mist the enclosure twice a day.
Placement - The cage is in a spare bedroom on a dresser. Not by any windows. From the floor to the top of his cage is probably about 5.5 feet.
Location - Oshkosh, WI
Current Problem - The last few weeks he has been eating considerably less, not drinking (at least I am not seeing it) and has been hanging upside down or on his side a lot. He will hang by his back two legs and tail or use brances to rest on (sometimes then falling over). His grip is strong in all four feet and he can climb (as I have seen him). He is spending a lot of time very close to the floor of his enlcosure and doesn't change colors anymore. He looks like he is stressed out (color wise). He does react by hissing when you try to pick him up to give him his medicine but he will sometimes sleep during the day now too.
Any ideas as to what is happening would be appreciated. I am terrified everytime I go in to check on him that I might not like what I see.
IMHO you are dusting too often with a D3 powder...most of us dust at almost every feeding with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for the poor ratio of calcium to phos. in many of the feeder insects and only use a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder twice a month.
What is in the supplement you give to the insects in the way of calcium, phosphorus, D3 and vitamin A?
What is the brand of your UVB light and is it a spiral, compact of long linear tube?
What is in the supplement you give to the insects in the way of calcium, phosphorus, D3 and vitamin A?
What is the brand of your UVB light and is it a spiral, compact of long linear tube?
jamncristian
Established Member
do you have a linear UVB bulb or compact/coiled??
Miss Lily
Chameleon Enthusiast
Going to the bottom of the enclosure can suggest that they are too hot. I notice that you have (and I quote) a 75 watt infrared heat lamp on 24 hours and that you've recently added a second. Chameleons don't usually need any heating at all at night unless it is very cold in your house. In fact they actually need a small drop in temps overnight, and darkness, to help them sleep properly.
ChamFreak
Avid Member
your suppliments are incorrect, as stated above we use the D3 2 times a month. you need vitamins and calcium. Vitamins, 2 times a month and calcium atleast 4 times a week.
Rep Cal is a great brand!
Lights are off as well, he could be trying to escape the heat, you need a basking light... Infared is for nightime. you need 75 watt day basking and pending your brand for UVB, I love repti-sun 5.0
It sounds like you handle him alot! Handle less!
Did I understand you correctly? you are treating him for parasites?
Rep Cal is a great brand!
Lights are off as well, he could be trying to escape the heat, you need a basking light... Infared is for nightime. you need 75 watt day basking and pending your brand for UVB, I love repti-sun 5.0
It sounds like you handle him alot! Handle less!
Did I understand you correctly? you are treating him for parasites?
The UVB bulb is a coiled bulb. It's by Exo-Terra and it is the Repti-Glo 5.0 13 watt bulb.
The calcium dust that I am using on the crickets is by ZooMed and its the ReptiCalcium with D3. The lable indicates that the ingredients are: Precipitated Calcium carbonate, Cholecalciferol (source of vitamin D3)
It is cold in our house (we do live in Wisconsin and just getting down with our winter.) The average temperature in the house is usually 60 degrees. I just recently added the second heat bulb at suggestion of my vet because before I added it the bottom part of his cage was about 60 degrees and he would spend 3/4 of his time there. The vet was concerned that this was slowing down his metabolism and making him lethargic. Now the lowest temp in the cage is about 70 degrees.
The calcium dust that I am using on the crickets is by ZooMed and its the ReptiCalcium with D3. The lable indicates that the ingredients are: Precipitated Calcium carbonate, Cholecalciferol (source of vitamin D3)
It is cold in our house (we do live in Wisconsin and just getting down with our winter.) The average temperature in the house is usually 60 degrees. I just recently added the second heat bulb at suggestion of my vet because before I added it the bottom part of his cage was about 60 degrees and he would spend 3/4 of his time there. The vet was concerned that this was slowing down his metabolism and making him lethargic. Now the lowest temp in the cage is about 70 degrees.
jamncristian
Established Member
you have to get him a linear reptisun 5.0 ASAP because coil bulbs are known to blind your chameleons due to the concentration of UV rays
that MIGHT be why he is acting that way
that MIGHT be why he is acting that way
Dave Weldon
Avid Member
Howdy Shannon,
A number of things have already been covered in other posts but I'll add a few and duplicate some too
.Orange urates, as you know, suggest dehydration but the can also be a sign of kidney problems/failure.
If he makes it through this, you'll want to upgrade to a larger enclosure.
Change the Infrared light to a single ~75W incandescent (Home Depot 60W halogen FLOOD is fine) and place it on top, pointing downward. Don't trust the thermometer. Do two things to verify the temps of the new light:
1.) Stick the back of your hand at the basking spot and if it just feels warm but not hot then you are not overheating.
2.) Get a low-cost infrared temp gun to check his skin temp.
The Exo-Terra Repti-Glo CFL and linear UVB tubes have had some manufacturing inconsistencies that may leave the buyer with a product that could be producing inadequate UVB levels and/or non-terrestrial spectral content. Until these are ironed out by the manufacturer, use a ZooMed Reptisun 5.0 linear tube and place it on top, aimed downward (not on the side of the enclosure) 6"-12" away from his basking spot.
Get a simple Lowe's AccuRate digital temp/humidity meter and verify that the humidity is above 40%.
Hanging upside-down and sleeping during the day are sure signs of serious troubles. I've often wondered if hanging upside-down was a way of relieving internal pressures on troubled organs like the liver, but that is just speculation on my part.
EDIT: I meant to add that it may also be useful to create an environment that minimizes the chances of falling and give him more options to move without ending upside-down. Maybe lots of vine-like material that lets him hold on while staying rightside-up.
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justjumpit621
New Member
Yes like everyone said there are multiple things wrong with your set up and schedule. I know I am going to repeat everyone else but I am just going down the list that you wrote and writing as I go as to not miss anything.
-I hope your sure it is a male, it is pretty easy to tell at 8 months but you never know.
- You should gutload with fresh fruits and veggies such as apples, carrots, romaine lettuce, kale, the list goes on and on, just use the search feature. Many commercial foods don't have all of the nutrients in them that your cham needs.
- You are probably over supplementing with d3. The better your UVB light, the less D3 you need. My schedule for supplements for my male veiled is plain phosphorus free calcium powder, or rep-cal w/o d3, at every feeding (every other day), calcium powder with d3, ReptiCalcium, twice a month, or every other week, and a multivitamin, I use reptivite with d3, once a month, or a week after the 2nd dusting of calcium with d3. This is a highly recommended schedule.
-Mist WAY more to keep humidity up, especially in Washington. I mist about 5 times a day, letting the cage dry out before each misting. Just a dripper won't cut it. Any orange in the urates means MIST MIST MIST. You can even put him in the shower on a plant with the water droplets bouncing off the shower wall. Warm water though, don't want to freeze him.
-If you wanted to treat him for parasites as a precaution you should have used panacur only once, I don't think any other dewormer medications are good for chameleons but I don't know. That is the only one I have heard of for treating chameleons. That and reptaid but it's not proven.
-No idea what emeraid II is but we recommend diluted pedialyte.
- Your cage is way too small, male veiled need at least a 4 foot tall cage.
- No night lights! Even infrared lights keep them up which may explain the sleeping. Use a regular house bulb for heat and keep it on for 12 hours during the day. Veileds need a good temperature decrease at night, usually into the 60's.
- Throw out the coil, those are bad news. get a reptisun 5.0 linear tube and put it on top of the cage next to the basking lamp.
-95 is too hot. Get a digital thermometer and make sure you keep the basking spot at around 85-90. Also make sure he cannot burn himself.
- You need at least a base humidity of 40%, going up to high 90's% when misting.
- If you are concerned about keeping in heat and humidity you can always put up plastic sheeting on 3 sides of the cage.
It does not sound like your vet is very knowledgeable with chameleons, I suggest finding someone else. Do A LOT of research, many of us have to drive hours to go to a GOOD chameleon vet but it is worth it in the end. Otherwise a vet that is not knowledgeable in chameleons can KILL your chameleon. Do not pump him with meds if you don't even know what is wrong with him, this will stress him out more and can even potentially kill him. Go to an experienced vet for a second opinion.
-I hope your sure it is a male, it is pretty easy to tell at 8 months but you never know.
- You should gutload with fresh fruits and veggies such as apples, carrots, romaine lettuce, kale, the list goes on and on, just use the search feature. Many commercial foods don't have all of the nutrients in them that your cham needs.
- You are probably over supplementing with d3. The better your UVB light, the less D3 you need. My schedule for supplements for my male veiled is plain phosphorus free calcium powder, or rep-cal w/o d3, at every feeding (every other day), calcium powder with d3, ReptiCalcium, twice a month, or every other week, and a multivitamin, I use reptivite with d3, once a month, or a week after the 2nd dusting of calcium with d3. This is a highly recommended schedule.
-Mist WAY more to keep humidity up, especially in Washington. I mist about 5 times a day, letting the cage dry out before each misting. Just a dripper won't cut it. Any orange in the urates means MIST MIST MIST. You can even put him in the shower on a plant with the water droplets bouncing off the shower wall. Warm water though, don't want to freeze him.
-If you wanted to treat him for parasites as a precaution you should have used panacur only once, I don't think any other dewormer medications are good for chameleons but I don't know. That is the only one I have heard of for treating chameleons. That and reptaid but it's not proven.
-No idea what emeraid II is but we recommend diluted pedialyte.
- Your cage is way too small, male veiled need at least a 4 foot tall cage.
- No night lights! Even infrared lights keep them up which may explain the sleeping. Use a regular house bulb for heat and keep it on for 12 hours during the day. Veileds need a good temperature decrease at night, usually into the 60's.
- Throw out the coil, those are bad news. get a reptisun 5.0 linear tube and put it on top of the cage next to the basking lamp.
-95 is too hot. Get a digital thermometer and make sure you keep the basking spot at around 85-90. Also make sure he cannot burn himself.
- You need at least a base humidity of 40%, going up to high 90's% when misting.
- If you are concerned about keeping in heat and humidity you can always put up plastic sheeting on 3 sides of the cage.
It does not sound like your vet is very knowledgeable with chameleons, I suggest finding someone else. Do A LOT of research, many of us have to drive hours to go to a GOOD chameleon vet but it is worth it in the end. Otherwise a vet that is not knowledgeable in chameleons can KILL your chameleon. Do not pump him with meds if you don't even know what is wrong with him, this will stress him out more and can even potentially kill him. Go to an experienced vet for a second opinion.
Elizadolots
New Member
Justjumpit wrote:
I admit, I always have that in mind when I read any of these "male" issues....how sure are you it's a male? That's one reason multiple pics from different angles of the animal would be helpful. There are people here who could say for sure if it's a male if they have the right pictures. (hint to the OP: pictures of the base of the tail, hopefully with the tail extended and the back feet/legs are the most helpful).
I admit, I always have that in mind when I read any of these "male" issues....how sure are you it's a male? That's one reason multiple pics from different angles of the animal would be helpful. There are people here who could say for sure if it's a male if they have the right pictures. (hint to the OP: pictures of the base of the tail, hopefully with the tail extended and the back feet/legs are the most helpful).
justjumpit621
New Member
For male veileds the back feet and full body pictures would be most helpful. No need for the base of the tail, male veileds colors are pretty prominent at that age and the spurs themselves give it away.
Elizadolots
New Member
Okay then...that takes a lot of issues of the table. How is he doing?
