Odd one out

[Glittergloomgirl]

Wow Jim thats crazy! thank you for that information. I was actually talking about that the other day. That ours could be a she male.

 

[Chameleon Nation]

This is the first that I have heard of the "He-she" or hermaphrodite in chameleons. This makes sense though, if can happen to humans I'm sure it can happen to all sorts of life, some walking sticks are for example. I'm really glad to see that there are still some people on here that are trying to help and be informative, rather than pick at you and try to rip you apart. If it is a male, well then I made a mistake, I am certainly not perfect. I can say that this is the first and only one that I have ever been confused with and I'll always remember this chameleon. I showed it to a female, and it opened it's mouth and started swaying. I showed it to a male and it tried to run away. No hemepene bulge, large rostral appendage, confused on what it wants. I would sell it as a male, but what do you label it as? I could only take an educated guess. I would rather take it back than sell something that I am not sure of.

Chameleon Nation
The original animal posted could be what we here call a "she-male", or "none-of-the-above". I have imported about a dozen such critters in the last 6 years, and produced a dozen or so additionally. Their shape is 75% male usually, in that they have a more pronounced rostral appendage than a female, but not as strong as some males. They are larger than a normal female, but would rate as a small male at best. Their color is bolder than a normal female, but also never as strong as the males of that locale. They have no hemipenal bulge. They show no interest in breeding as either sex. They will not breed. Somewhere there is genetic confusion, and it appears to be totally random in our experience. We have never spent the money to necropsy one, and don't really care to, as we have no doubts as to it being "mixed up". Not saying that is what has happened here, but it absolutely does happen, and was not suggested by others.

 

[Chameleon Company]

One of the difficulties with getting a grasp on the scope of this problem is that it does not become apparent until the animal is larger. An honest mistake, if the animal changed hands when it was smaller, it was likely sexed one way or the other then. As it matures, the new owner might assume as a means of explanation that they got a mis-sexed animal to explain its physical shape. They might also think they got impure bloodlines to explain lackluster color. And they might assume that they aren't doing something right, or that the animal has some misunderstood sex drive, to explain why it doesn't show any initiative to breed, or accept advances from persistent others.

As many breeders ship out 90% or more of their animals before large enough to even begin to think its a she-male, cause the bills have to be paid, we are not in a position to get a grasp of the frequency of this problem. My belief is that most of these animals are sold as females initially. It does become apparent sooner if one has the siblings still to compare it to as it matures, as the differences are more readily seen by comparison. Otherwise, many hobbyist/buyers will find themselves stuck in the above confusion if their little girl turns into a mix. Regarding its actual sexual organs, I do not know what is or is not there. It could also vary from one she-male to another, and I do not know that it would meet most definitions of being a true "hermaphrodite", although I have used the term before. We have also used the slang "she-beast". My current estimate is that it is easily less than 2% of all animals, and possibly less than 1%. I think I first suspected such in 2001 with some imports, and by 2003 had seen enough random CBB instances to know it was a valid phenomenon in panthers.

 

[dodolah]

1 simple Question ,
In the case you accidentally got 1 of the she-males in your collection, did you treat them like female in care? Do they still lay infertile eggs?

Thanks

One of the difficulties with getting a grasp on the scope of this problem is that it does not become apparent until the animal is larger. An honest mistake, if the animal changed hands when it was smaller, it was likely sexed one way or the other then. As it matures, the new owner might assume as a means of explanation that they got a mis-sexed animal to explain its physical shape. They might also think they got impure bloodlines to explain lackluster color. And they might assume that they aren't doing something right, or that the animal has some misunderstood sex drive, to explain why it doesn't show any initiative to breed, or accept advances from persistent others.

As many breeders ship out 90% or more of their animals before large enough to even begin to think its a she-male, cause the bills have to be paid, we are not in a position to get a grasp of the frequency of this problem. My belief is that most of these animals are sold as females initially. It does become apparent sooner if one has the siblings still to compare it to as it matures, as the differences are more readily seen by comparison. Otherwise, many hobbyist/buyers will find themselves stuck in the above confusion if their little girl turns into a mix. Regarding its actual sexual organs, I do not know what is or is not there. It could also vary from one she-male to another, and I do not know that it would meet most definitions of being a true "hermaphrodite", although I have used the term before. We have also used the slang "she-beast". My current estimate is that it is easily less than 2% of all animals, and possibly less than 1%. I think I first suspected such in 2001 with some imports, and by 2003 had seen enough random CBB instances to know it was a valid phenomenon in panthers.

 

[Chameleon Company]

OK. First off, I do not have "she-males" in my collection. I have produced a few though. Of the few that we have had, at what should have been sexual maturity, whether CBB or WC, we have never seen one breed. We have never seen one lay eggs. We have never had one die with eggs. My opinion is that those of enough genetic mix-up to appear as a she-male are not capable of producing eggs. This does not preclude the possibility that many "female" panthers are genetically predisposed to not be able to produce viable eggs, while at the same time not having reached the threshold of what we are loosely calling "she-males". The gray area in-between male and female, where animals would be genetically confused, could have many degrees to it.