Madagascar and CITES (legal Parson's, etc. exports?)

[Kent67]

If the quotas for parsonii were low like the 250 for F. campani it won't affect the price at all. They just wouldn't have to be smuggled and laundered through Asia before being sent here as it's been for the last 15 years.

 

[chameleonkev]

If the quotas for parsonii were low like the 250 for F. campani it won't affect the price at all. They just wouldn't have to be smuggled and laundered through Asia before being sent here as it's been for the last 15 years.

Well that would be good as they would arrive in a much healthier state I would have thought

 

[pssh]

Keep in mind that the exports would be spread out between the countries too, so not all 250 would end up in one area. I don't think it would affect the price at all.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Cheaper and Easyier to get hmmm, I don't think it would be a good thing, take me for instance I have been looking at these a while and have started to do my research on this beautiful species in the hope to one day own a pair, I had the chance to get my hands on some parsons not to long ago but the only thing that stoped me was the space issue noing I couldn't give them the prefect home at the moment but I think for some people this wouldn't put them of, it's only the price that keeps people away from parsons and if that drops I think there will be a lot of parsons out there that arnt getting the care they require so to be Honest I like things as they are

With quota numbers being estimated at 250 animals for the entire globe they still would not be "Easy to Buy (find) Animals". Correct though the price should stay high to prevent these high maintenance animals from being purchased by someone who is not ready for one. I had the opportunity to buy a healthy male Parsonii for $100 USD in 1994 and passed due to lack of experience and resources. After I finally got a greenhouse and added much experience I had the opportunity and acquired a male Parsonii and am absolutely glad I held off until I had the conditions the greenhouse provided.

even after looking at the price i researched them they are a high maintenance animal, with a immense amount of space and humidity which would be pretty impossible for me in the desert. besides the price is probly what hypes them up so much

They are a high maintenance species however I think they have earned the title of most spectacular chameleons species. If they were ever voted and were not #1 they would be close to the top in my book.

I totally agree! If the pricing was lower, it would encourage those that dont know to "give it a go" resulting in a lot of fatalities with this species. As it stands, the only people willing to spend the amount of money that these cost are the ones that can provide them with everything they need so as not to kill them.

I think this theory has been proven from before when the ban was in place to now that there is no ban (or 0 quotas). Before 1995 Parsonii were going for around $100 USD and even less sometime. Many people bought them and killed these high maintenance animals fast. These animals absolutely should only be attempted to work with if the keepers have got the resources and experience.

If the quotas for parsonii were low like the 250 for F. campani it won't affect the price at all. They just wouldn't have to be smuggled and laundered through Asia before being sent here as it's been for the last 15 years.

Yeah with 250 animals that is a good start to replenish captive breeding programs. Ideally though most of the purchases should be from captive breeders here in the USA or elsewhere (such as Andreas in Germany) and not rely exclusively on imports for animals in the hobby.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Another note. To the best of my knowledge, in Europe where Parsonii are much more available (even see Orange Eyes, Yellow Lips, Parsonii cristifers, and Honey Parsons (Yellow Giants)) the price is still very high compared to other chameleon species. If Parsonii become more available in the USA and if prices are reflected and similar to European prices, the prices for Parsonii are still going to be high here in the USA.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

Another note. To the best of my knowledge, in Europe where Parsonii are much more available (even see Orange Eyes, Yellow Lips, Parsonii cristifers, and Honey Parsons (Yellow Giants)) the price is still very high compared to other chameleon species. If Parsonii become more available in the USA and if prices are reflected and similar to European prices, the prices for Parsonii are still going to be high here in the USA.

Wouldn't that also mean that importing CBB from established breeders in Europe would be easier? If that happened it may take some of the strain off of purchasing wild caught animals.

I've sat and ghosted the forums for a bit, just absorbing the info. After nearly 20 years without a Parson I'm looking forward to the end result of this.

I'm even going to convert my indoor spa into a full habitat over then next year or so. Muhahahahahahahahahaha, taking the crazy chameleon keeper title to a new level

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Wouldn't that also mean that importing CBB from established breeders in Europe would be easier? If that happened it may take some of the strain off of purchasing wild caught animals.

I've sat and ghosted the forums for a bit, just absorbing the info. After nearly 20 years without a Parson I'm looking forward to the end result of this.

I'm even going to convert my indoor spa into a full habitat over then next year or so. Muhahahahahahahahahaha, taking the crazy chameleon keeper title to a new level

I think that would probably make importing from Europe a bit easier. Although papers are papers and without the appropriate papers now during the ban or if Parsonii being exported from Madagascar again still require appropriate documents and permits for exportation.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Wouldn't that also mean that importing CBB from established breeders in Europe would be easier? If that happened it may take some of the strain off of purchasing wild caught animals.

I think that would probably make importing from Europe a bit easier. Although papers are papers and without the appropriate papers now during the ban or if Parsonii being exported from Madagascar again still require appropriate documents and permits for exportation.

It shouldn't have any effect on the ease of importing CBB from Europe. The 1995 trade suspension made no distinction between WC, FR or CB from Madagascar so this will in effect allow CB from Madagascar to be exported. The permit requirements for CB from outside Madagascar remain the same as they always have. If breeders were unable to document the legal origin of their bloodline before so they could get CITES documents for their babies, they still will not be able to for the same reason.

Chris

 

[mphelps]

Everyone is hoping for parsonii to become more available, and I understand the attraction of this species, having kept them in the 1990s. But I would like to speak up for the smaller Calumma species. I would love an opportunity to acquire Calumma gastrotaenia or nasutus, which are also mentioned in the CITIES documents. One of my dream species is Calumma gallus, but I'm not holding out much hope that I will every have opportunity to acquire some.

 

[Kent67]

Very true, Mike. Calumma brevicorne was one of the species I was really wanting to work with prior to the trade suspension. It would be very very cool to see them again. Hopefully Madagascar is indeed moving toward being allowed to export farmed animals but I guess we're going to have to wait a bit longer to see.

I've also been thinking about how interesting it will be to see what the campani retail for when they start coming in. Will they be worth top $ because of the low quota and time since they were last imported or will their naturally short life spans keep the prices lower?

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

All the eastern Madagascar species I want to work with.

One detail that many keepers who were not around before the ban is the fact that most of the species in the genus Calumma, to the best of my knowledge, have not been reproduce as cb with much or any success. This is including all the Elephant Chameleons and smaller Calumma chameleon species. Actually the only ones I am aware of that have been bred in captivity are Calumma parsonii, Calumma globifer, Calumma gallus and Calumma nasuta. It would be great to see accomplished breeding groups of these species from this genus in the future.

 

[mphelps]

Very true, Mike. Calumma brevicorne was one of the species I was really wanting to work with prior to the trade suspension. It would be very very cool to see them again. Hopefully Madagascar is indeed moving toward being allowed to export farmed animals but I guess we're going to have to wait a bit longer to see.

I've also been thinking about how interesting it will be to see what the campani retail for when they start coming in. Will they be worth top $ because of the low quota and time since they were last imported or will their naturally short life spans keep the prices lower?

How short is the life span of campani? I don't know any of the details about this species. They aren't an "annual" like labordi, are they?

 

[showjet95]

How short is the life span of campani? I don't know any of the details about this species. They aren't an "annual" like labordi, are they?

Mike, they dont come from the hot and dry southwest so no, they are not an "annual" species. I would say they would be similar to a carpet.

 

[mphelps]

Mike, they dont come from the hot and dry southwest so no, they are not an "annual" species. I would say they would be similar to a carpet.

Thanks Paul. That makes sense.

 

[Kent67]

Mike, they dont come from the hot and dry southwest so no, they are not an "annual" species. I would say they would be similar to a carpet.

Exactly. So who would pay $500 or more for wc of unknown age in a species that lives less than 3 years in captivity?

 

[Kent67]

Furcifer campani has officially been given a quota of 250 individuals for 2012. Uroplatus phantasticus was also given a quota again. Sure will be interesting to see what they go for....

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Furcifer campani has officially been given a quota of 250 individuals for 2012. Uroplatus phantasticus was also given a quota again. Sure will be interesting to see what they go for....

Freaking awesome!!!! This could be the start of something big. Where did you hear this latest news Kent?

 

[Kent67]

CITES updated their 2012 export quotas document back on the 17th and I just noticed it tonight.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

CITES updated their 2012 export quotas document back on the 17th and I just noticed it tonight.

Kent

Thanks for updating the post. This new system and continued conservation of Madagascar forests and chameleon habitat could led to legitimate new quotas for other chameleon species. This could be the beginning of something big.

Jeremy