Kinyongia Tenuis Gravid?

[dartfrog]

Hi everyone
I have a trio of Tenuis & Im not sure if one of the females is gravid? They are kept together have been for the last 5months & get on great. The male is approx 11months & the females 14months. They always sleep together so thought Id get a pic last night as they looked so cute When I looked closer one of the females looks like she has an egg inside, what do you guys think? Also can I leave her with the other 2 will she lay ok? The viv is very well planted with lots of places for her too hide.
Thanks so much Heatherxxx

 

[Cainschams]

She looks rather plump to me. I would say she is gravid. I am not sure if she would lay with the others in the cage. I have two pairs and house the females separate when I notice they are gravid.

 

[james L]

Great looking chameleons! Very pretty.

 

[dartfrog]

Thanks Cain
The other female looks preety plump as well, can you tell me what their gravid colours are? Do you think I could leave the females together & just move the male, Ive only one spare viv at the moment also would it not stress the other female moving her if she was gravid also? They are showing no aggression towards the male they stay together most of the time would they not be upset by his presence if they were gravid?
Thanks as well James they are great little chams the male is so friendly runs up my arm when he wants to come out I have a big branch that hangs from the ceilng which he loves to explore! Heatherxxx

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

I do not think she is gravid. When gravid the get a rusty red coloration. I think she is showing receptive colors.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/jus...-tenuis-usambara-soft-horned-chameleon-33098/


Edit : But she does look plump. Does she ever show the red color? Can you feel eggs?

 

[Cainschams]

As Ryan showed some will get a rusty look to them. However, my females never really change much even in the presence of a male. The female in the picture I posted is gravid and also darker because I had her out. Usually my females stay a nice light color but when stressed will get a rusty look to them. Usually lots of pinks and blues. They also look quite a bit different than the females I have seen from the shipment that came in on "accident" in Florida which the female Ryan showed is from.

I have also noticed that my females did not mind the males after they were housed together for a few days. Even my two males do not seem to mind each other when I have them housed together in hopes that it triggers them to want to breed. I would like to hear from Joery about separating the females when gravid. I know he houses them in large groups but do not know if he does separate them. I house mine individually just to be on the safe side so I cant really say they would or wouldnt lay when around other chams

Its funny that your male is not afraid of you!! All of mine drop to the ground, squirm and flop like a fish if I get too close to them. I would suspect this to be them dropping to the ground and trying to bury themselves in leaf litter or tall grass.

Hear is the pic of one of my gravid females. Again she did start to get a little darker because I had to pull her out to do a deep clean to the cage.

Same female.

Different female gravid but around when I first got them.

This is when I first got them and snapped a picture after I pulled them from the box. It shows the rusty look because of being stressed. As I said I do not see them turn dark because of the males. Although I never see the males try to advance either.

 

[dartfrog]

Hi guys thanks for the info its all very confusing! the pic I took was when she was asleep so think this is why her colour was lighter it looked like there was a white object in her lower abdomen so this is why I thought it was an egg/eggs. Ive just tidied their viv took them out for a run around on my hanging branch the female that I think may be gravid was showing pale blue/grey colours the same as the other female she has turned really aggressive towards me trying to bite & jumping from my hand I managed to get one pic of her where she looks more reddish brown on my hand this is how she stayed when I put her back. I will try & post some pics later.
Thanks so much Heatherxxx

 

[Texas Panther Man]

What a gorgeous little species. Im starting to get the Kinyongia itch.

 

[dartfrog]

Here are the pics I took earlier today. The first 2 are of the not gravid female I think? The next is the gravid one, sorry its not very good but she was really stressed & wouldnt sit still! Also a couple of my male who is so much easier to photo a real sweetie,& one of their viv.
Thanks for looking Heatherxxx

 

[Cainschams]

Yeah I would say your one female is definitely gravid! She definitely has the rusty gravid look. As you can kind of see in my pics the females look a bit different. They have blues instead of greens. I wonder why mine dont seem to get that realy rusty color when gravid. Your animals look great and the viv is awesome!! Good luck with her and I hope your male is more eager to breed than my two males!

 

[dartfrog]

Thanks Cain for your kind words Im so trying to do right by them The one we think is gravid isnt brown all the time she can be mottled as well with browns & greys she is very timid & stresses easy compared to the other female & male. Could you do me a favour & look at the fist pic I put up of the 3 of them asleep can you see the white object this is what I thought were the egg/eggs? What do you think? Heatherxxx

 

[Cainschams]

The white object as in right above the foot in the picture? Definitely looks like that is where an egg is sitting in her stomach. Your other female looks a bit plump too. Maybe she is starting on a clutch or in the middle. Its hard to tell with this species when they first start producing a clutch because of the long gestation period. It could just be her inflating for the picture too. What type of substrate do you have on the bottom of your viv?

 

[dartfrog]

Hi Cain, yes thats the white object I was talking about Im so hoping she maybe gravid the other female looks plump too they were both introduced to the male at the same time in December last year so could be due to lay soon. Its all very confusing with their colours isnt it especially as yours arnt showing the rust browns. Ive asked Joery as well he says rust brown also My substrate is a layer of cocofibre with a small amount of orchid bark mixed in approx 7" deep with live sphagnum moss on top. If I do get any eggs I know they need to be kept fairly cool, Ive some Cristatus eggs incubating at the moment which im keeping at 23degrees during the day & 20 at night in my Lucky Reptile incubator(looking great Can I put the Tenuis eggs on the lower shelf this will keep them at 22 during the day & 19 at night or will this be too warm for them? Heatherxxx

 

[Cainschams]

Yes! They definitely arent the easiest species to predict out of the species I have kept. I am not sure if 22 celsius is too warm or not. I have mine between 19 and 21 celsius. Although only 3 of 10 of the eggs lasted longer than a few weeks and I just had one die the other day. I cut it open and found only mush and no embryo so this does not make me feel good about the other eggs In the PDF file I have from Necas it says people have had success keeping them at 24C daytime and 15C night time for the first 5 days, a constant 17C to 18C for six months and then a constant 20.5C until hatching. The temps are high the first 5 days but I am not sure what prolonged temps above 21C will do. I know Ryan had success hatching one out at the temps that I am incubating mine. Another person who might be able to steer you in more direction than I can would be Micha from pardalisberlin. I know they have had success hatching them out. Wish I could give more of a definite answer but I only have limited experience with this species.

I can send you the PDF if you do not have it. Just PM me your email.

 

[dartfrog]

Im so sorry to hear your sad news with your eggs Cain, was the female gravid when you got her? If they sadly turn out to be infertile do you think this could be why she showed a different gravid colouration? I have the article from Necas in his book but thankyou anyway. If I get any eggs will def ask Micha who is where I got my little boy from (called him Mika) Really appreciate all your help all the best with yours Heatherxxx

 

[Cainschams]

Both females were well into the gestation period when I got them around August. They both laid infertile clutches a few weeks after I got them. After that I tried introducing them to the males. Tried every which way I could (two males one female, all of them, etc.) But never saw the males try to mate with the females. Actually the males were afraid of them. After the females laid another clutch the 5 from one all died off quickly and 2 from the other. That is where I got the 3 eggs. After this I housed them in pairs for a lot longer than the previous times. They all seemed to not mind each other after just a few days. I also housed all four together for some time and the two males seemed to even get use to each other after a few days. I was hoping male to male interaction might get them to want to court the females. I am hoping this worked but I just didnt see them mate. If not I hope that with warm weather here and being able to house them outside most of the time will trigger the males to try and court.

Its kind of funny that we are talking about this at the moment. I have been watching one female very close lately because she is a fatty and also put her in a bin a week or so ago. She did not lay but she is laying today I put mine in big bins with moistened sand on the bottom and a little bit of soil mixed in. Make it so they cant get out and put nothing on the bottom.

 

[dartfrog]

3rd time lucky then Cain, sounds more promising for you Ill keep everything crossed! Did you remove the females each time for laying, I worry this may upset my girl as she stresses easily,would she not feel safe in the viv as you can see its very well planted. Heatherxxx

 

[Cainschams]

I meant to say in the last post also. I have had the thought that since they may not be fertilized eggs is the reason they arent showing the more rusty colors.

The viv is very well planted and I am sure they all feel safe in it!! I cant say whether she would or wouldnt lay in there. I would say if you are afraid to stress her by moving her then just keep a close eye one her. If she is going to the bottom, scratching around, etc but not laying with in a few days after you notice it I would transfer her. Mine do not seem to get too stressed out. When both females I have are ready to go they usually start digging within 20 or so minutes after they get put in the bin. I can also tell they are ready because they will start getting restless and wandering the bottom of the cage (typical signs).

I have my fingers crossed too and for you!! Thanks!

 

[dartfrog]

Great advice Cain, will see how things go she isnt spending any time on the bottom at the moment but if she starts looking unhappy about things will give this a go. Thanks Heatherxxx