Intelligent discussion about line / in-breeding

[Rocky]

First of all I know there is a lot of controversy in this and how it can be strung out to a very heated debate. I would like to keep this discussion on the topic of breeding and not calling it incest etc. etc. etc. So if you don't know much about the subject I'd prefer you not put in a comment such as, I don't agree with it because you are breeding daughters to fathers etc.

In-breeding means that you are breeding close relatives together. Like parent to child or child to child or half-sibling to half-sibling. A lot of people who say they are line breeding are really in-breeding.

Line breeding means that you are breeding distant relatives to each other. Like grand-sire to grandchild, or uncle to niece, etc. etc.

I am well aware of the down side to this type of breeding. It can eventually lead to weak bloodlines if constantly done and can enhance deformities as well as the good characteristics you are looking for.

However, I think with certain species (Pardalis and Calyptratus) we have strong enough captive blood lines that line breeding or in breeding can be done effectively to bring out desired traits. And I am sure there are certain breeders who do it, but just don't mention it.

This type of breeding has been done with many other reptiles to enhance the color types and I think it could be done with Veiled Chameleons and possibly Panthers if done right. Examples are the different coloration's of leopard geckos (who were originally brownish in color) and the different ball python morphs. Using that type of breeding completely changed the market for those animals and I think if certain traits were bred into Veiled Chameleons it could really change the market on them.

What do you think?

 

[ChameleonAlley]

Interesting topic.

I just found this on Chameleon on line E zine from Amazing Blue Reptiles:

Quote from Jim Nozaki about inbreeding.

"Inbreeding is another method that is used by some breeders to maximize the blue coloration. I do not plan on discussing the merits or any possible negative aspects of the inbreeding practice but I believe that no one can argue that genetic diversity is one of the key elements in the health of a given population of animals or of an entire species.

Inbreeding has been practiced by many other herpeticulturists in their breeding colonies to bring out desirable traits in their snakes, geckos and other reptile species. Although no obvious detrimental effects due to inbreeding have yet to surface (to my knowledge) that can, without question, be directly attributed to inbreeding, we at Amazing Blue Reptiles have made a concerted effort to avoid such practices for reasons of offering the highest level of genetic diversity. I would recommend others to avoid inbreeding if the sole purpose of it is to purify the color in your blue panthers.

One of the methods I use to keep my breeders genetically diversified is to breed wild caught males (that are blue) to proven captive bred females that carry the blue trait. This method allows the introduction of new genes via the WC males into my breeding stock while maintaining the desired blue traits in the offspring. As stated earlier, it is becoming very rare to find true blue examples of wild Nosy Bé Panthers so introducing their new 'blue gene' is becoming very difficult. I have been very fortunate in that most of my best male breeders have been wild caught animals."

 

[Julirs]

In Veileds more so but also in Panthers, one clutch can provide drastically different siblings. I am most interested in hearing from people that practice line breeding if it narrows down the variation seen in clutches. I am 100 % for genetic diversity.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Great info Kevin. Good topic Rocky this is something that is rarely talked about.

 

[Rocky]

Well what brings this up for me is that today at the Dallas/Ft Worth NARBC I got to see a show put on by Ron Tremper about the Leopard Geckos. And basically what he was saying about all the leopard gecko morphs that were created was that when an offspring was produced that made something that he wanted, we went back and bred it to the parent to produce a more solid line of it.

Like I'm sure if someone were to breed the super yellow veiled seen here https://www.chameleonforums.com/favorite-panther-vs-veiled-1911/ , back to his mom you would end up seeing more males with that color (possibly)

 

[sandrachameleon]

What do you think?

I think without inbreeding and line breeding, we wouldnt have all the amazing different types of dog breeds we have today. Unfortunately, most of those different breeds are seriously ill due to the same practises.

All breeding ought be done cautiously with careful cost benefit risk assessment, including giving weight to the risk health of the animals equal or greater than that of the benefit to the looks of the animal and the bank balance of the breeder.

if one ignores the ethical considerations, and just looks like it as a means to an end (a particular colour of whatever), culling whatever doesnt work out well, i see no reason why it couldnt be effective. Im quite certain it is already widely practised.

 

[Syn]

+1 to Sandra. I agree with her post 100%. Sandra, you said it better than I ever could have.

 

[ChameleonAlley]

I think without inbreeding and line breeding, we wouldnt have all the amazing different types of dog breeds we have today. Unfortunately, most of those different breeds are seriously ill due to the same practises.

All breeding ought be done cautiously with careful cost benefit risk assessment, including giving weight to the risk health of the animals equal or greater than that of the benefit to the looks of the animal and the bank balance of the breeder.

if one ignores the ethical considerations, and just looks like it as a means to an end (a particular colour of whatever), culling whatever doesnt work out well, i see no reason why it couldnt be effective. Im quite certain it is already widely practised.

That's a really interesting point. We have corgis and one of our dogs (not inbred) has severe epilepsy. After doing a lot of research, we found that this is due to inbreeding in pure bred dogs.

I keep hearing that this has been a widely practiced thing with breeders among chameleons. I've yet to hear anyone talk about the effects whether negative or positive. Is this because it's a hush hush kind of thing among breeders? Is it really as widely practiced as I keep hearing?

 

[Brad Ramsey]

I think the danger and biggest reason (in my opinion) for not condoning this practice is that people don't know when to stop.
It certainly happens in nature, but not generation after generation after generation.
In an effort to continue to make better coloration, or fine tune a certain characteristic in captive breeding, we would unfortunately see several generations out of the same families and then we would possibly begin to see weak, unhealthy or otherwise substandard animals.
If you bred siblings or a son to a mother or uncle etc. then bred the offspring to a fresh bloodline I think you would be fine.

-Brad

Edit: Incidentally, this is something I do not worry about with pygmys.

 

[Rocky]

if one ignores the ethical considerations, and just looks like it as a means to an end (a particular colour of whatever), culling whatever doesnt work out well, i see no reason why it couldnt be effective. Im quite certain it is already widely practised.

Just wondering, when do you think it becomes unethical? I completely agree that it should be kept with in common ethics as all breeding practices should be. But technically 1 generation of inbreeding could weaken a genetic line and produce a few deformities. However it could also just slowly weaken it and not really show anything bad until say 4-5 generations of doing so.

From what I see in line breeding, you are breeding the baby back to the parent because it is basically guaranteed that the parent is het and there should be more babies that have the gene show with a homozygous gene crosses with a heterozygous. However the parent could also be het for something like no eye lids and then if the baby was also het then it would be more likely that the no eye lids would appear.

 

[Rocky]

I think the danger and biggest reason (in my opinion) for not condoning this practice is that people don't know when to stop.
It certainly happens in nature, but not generation after generation after generation.
In an effort to continue to make better coloration, or fine tune a certain characteristic in captive breeding, we would unfortunately see several generations out of the same families and then we would possibly begin to see weak, unhealthy or otherwise substandard animals.
If you bred siblings or a son to a mother or uncle etc. then bred the offspring to a fresh bloodline I think you would be fine.

-Brad

This is exactly how I feel on the subject Brad. I think it is basically up to the breeder to be ethical. I think it is kind of similar to how the "ethical breeders" have respect for the animals, meaning that they don't over breed the animal and use them as an egg sac. An "unethical breeder" (I've seen many) basically would just breed a female as many times as possible a year. That same breeder would more than likely line breed / in breed over and over to an extent that would show what they want to see but they would also be culling a lot of animals.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Just wondering, when do you think it becomes unethical?

Ethical lines are generlly something that needs a group of people both involved and objective to hammer out, based on the collective views of the community. Im not sure what I think personally is overly relevant to this thread, as it would be my lonely subjective assessment. I generally feel uncomfortable with inbreeding and line breeding, and for that matter with continuing to import wild caught "fresh blood." Without any regulations, or breeding club standards, or bloodline tracking system, its pretty hard to know what current practise even is, and what the effects may be of same. I am insufficiently informed to have a solid opinion.

 

[sandrachameleon]

I think the danger and biggest reason (in my opinion) for not condoning this practice is that people don't know when to stop.[...]

Good point.

Edit: Incidentally, this is something I do not worry about with pygmys

I find this very interesting. Clearly you've seen no deterioration over time. Fasinating.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

I find this very interesting. Clearly you've seen no deterioration over time. Fasinating.

I should elaborate.
My original group was all WC 1.3, a couple of months later I added 4 more females.
Several females were already gravid when they started with me, so those eggs were fertilized by wild males that were never here.
Breeding also occurred here with the one male and several (if not all) of the females.
I lost the last original animal a couple of weeks ago and am left with a rather large population of 1st generation animals that were all hatched here.
I have no idea who came from who and I intend to leave them all together to breed as they will.
I am not worried about any possible inbreeding at this point, but I do not have several generations to study.
I think it would be very difficult to manage breeding with a colony of brevicaudatus, and since they live in family groups/colonies naturally, I'm not sure it's important to try.

-Brad

 

[ChameleonAlley]

Pretty interesting article from the Reptile Channel:

http://www.reptilechannel.com/lizards/breeding-lizards/inbreeding-reptiles.aspx

 

[Texas Panther Man]

While i dont condone the practice of inbreeding. I do think that large scale breeders can and do practice this with regularlarity. I also believe that with the sheer number of breeders and offspring they have on site. They are able to accomplish this without major health issues.

But the problem lies with small scale hobbyists trying to replicate the same outcome with far less genetic diversity on hand. (fewer breeders and less offspring to pick from)

 

[jrh3]

Im pretty sure in the wild they dont know who their brothers and sisters are.

 

[hallenhe]

With many animals, line-breeding and/or inbreeding is how novel mutants were originally propagated - Rex cats (curly coats) come to mind as an example - a rare trait arises and, due to the apparent rarity, the animal must be crossed with close relatives to begin with to maximize the chance of getting the trait "fixed" in the population.
With something like, say, red-bodied blue bar Ambilobes, I think there's enough diversity in captive bloodlines and/or potential from wild-caught to make it unnecessary; if a never-before-seen color pattern (or trait) were to arise, there may be more justification.
The risk of deleterious genetic effects from close-relative breeding probably would not occur in the first cross or first couple crosses; as others have said, perpetuating such matings has a much higher potential for sickly or damaged animals.

 

[Rocky]

Im pretty sure in the wild they dont know who their brothers and sisters are.

Of course, everything in the wild is random and more than likely it happens every now and then. What I'm talking about is deliberate in-breeding or line breeding to bring out certain traits. In the wild they are just trying to reproduce so their specie doesn't die off.

 

[Rocky]

Ethical lines are generlly something that needs a group of people both involved and objective to hammer out, based on the collective views of the community.

That's why I thought this topic should be discussed