Infertile clutches: the good, the bad, the ugly

[desultadox]

So it seems like there's some conflicting opinions on infertile clutches. One idea is that females will lay unfertilized eggs when they are over supplemented or conditions are "too good." But is there really such thing as "too good?" If a female lays an unfertilized clutch, is that a sign that you are taking great care of her or does it mean that you should cut back on feeding/supplementation? What side effects; good or bad, could result from the laying of infertile clutches? Is there a significant difference between a gravid female with infertile eggs versus one with fertile eggs (in terms of behavior, physical features, etc)?

 

[chamlover]

So it seems like there's some conflicting opinions on infertile clutches. One idea is that females will lay unfertilized eggs when they are over supplemented or conditions are "too good." But is there really such thing as "too good?" If a female lays an unfertilized clutch, is that a sign that you are taking great care of her or does it mean that you should cut back on feeding/supplementation? What side effects; good or bad, could result from the laying of infertile clutches? Is there a significant difference between a gravid female with infertile eggs versus one with fertile eggs (in terms of behavior, physical features, etc)?

A female is going to lay eggs if the conditions are "good" for her to have them. Not necessarily "too good" If her body receives the nutrition that it needs in order for her to produce the eggs, it will do so. If you are taking "too good" care of her then she will not only have a clutch but she will have a large clutch. My female just laid 48 eggs which i consider to be a large clutch. The more often she has clutches and the larger the clutches are, the more taxing it is on the female. It is extremely hard on their little bodies. One of the seniors can verify this but if i remember correctly, chams in the wild would never have a clutch that large. This is her 3rd clutch in less than a year and because it takes so much out of them if i continued to let her breed she would not live a very long life. So to make sure that she does i will follow the rules of what to do so she doesn't produce any eggs for quite a while in order to give her body time to recover. As far as differences between infertile and fertile clutches, i have never witnessed any.

Debby

 

[Eric Adrignola]

I have found that a female that is fed in such a way as to produce early maturation and/or large clutches tends to continue that trend for a while. It may take a major slowdown in food intake, or a cool period, to get her to stop laying so often (48 eggs is a lot, but 3X a year is a bigger concern for her longevity).

Nothing brings their egg production to a halt like winter.

 

[Julirs]

My female laid a clutch of 81 at a young age, she was not "overfed" but I did keep her temps in the upper comfortable range. She was a very large girl from the beginning. I cooled her basking temps considerably, regulated her feeding somewhat, and she did lay 2 infertile clutches after that of 30ish eggs each. I have not bred her again since she laid the eggs in October. Feeding and temps are really the only things we can control. Site of a male is another consideration.

 

[kinyonga]

I've been "doing" the diet/temperature control for many many years now with veileds and some other species. For veileds, they never lay a clutch of eggs without me making adjustments to those controls...and the clutches are always in the area of 20 -25 eggs. With panthers (as another example) I can not stop the reproduction but the clutch size is still 20 -25.

 

[desultadox]

So if it's not really feasible to prevent egg-laying in Panthers and if there's no significant difference in physiological effects of laying an infertile clutch versus laying a fertile clutch, is there really any reason NOT to breed a mature female (assuming you're ready, willing, and able to care for the eggs and babies)? Thanks for the replies btw.

 

[Cameron B]

So if it's not really feasible to prevent egg-laying in Panthers and if there's no significant difference in physiological effects of laying an infertile clutch versus laying a fertile clutch, is there really any reason NOT to breed a mature female (assuming you're ready, willing, and able to care for the eggs and babies)? Thanks for the replies btw.

I have had this same question too! Looking forward to the answers brought forth by others!

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

Debby is correct, the more eggs/clutches a chameleon lays the harder it is on the female. It does not matter if the clutch is fertile or infertile, egg laying depletes their calcium and it generally shortens their life span. That being said I am having trouble slowing my female panthers down, it seems like a month after a second clutch they become receptive then a week or so after they show their receptive coloration they become gravid (if I pair them or not). I am trying to figure it out because I do not like the pattern. I want a female to breed one time a year and lay their 2 to 3 clutches in that year.

I guess what I am trying to say is that if conditions are "too good" and they become gravid without mating then they are going to continually be producing eggs, fertile or infertile, which is going to greatly shorten their life span. So, I would say try to stay away from the "too good" conditions.

-chris

 

[desultadox]

I've got a pair now and though they do have visual barriers, while cleaning their cages they have seen each other, so they do know of each other's existence. Now they tend to stay near their cage doors and eagerly await my opening the cage for care so they crawl out and try to reach each other. The female is particularly eager. I planned on breeding anyway, but I thought they were a little young (the female is only 8 months and the male is 7 months). If she's going to lay anyway though, it might as well be productive.

 

[Justin Carl]

Their is really no difference if the clutch is fertile or infertile.
It's still going to have a negative effect on the lifespan of your female chameleon.
You could be more inclined to overfeed or feed a little extra if the clutch is fertile.
If you are feeding extra then the clutch will most likely be larger.
Either way it is placing a demand on the females body.
I agree with you desultadox, if she is going to lay why would you not want breed them?
I would do your best to make the clutch a little more natural.
By natural I mean small clutch size.

Some things you might want to ask yourself would be.
How much does she weigh?
How old is she?
Is my female large enough to handle a clutch of eggs?
Is she still growing?
If she is, then this will have a negative effect on her developing strong bones.

Yes, the incubation time is very, very long, but are you ready to take care of 20-30 babies?
Do you have a place to put them?
Can you afford to feed them on a college budget?
Do you think your going to make a quick buck?-You wont with only one female.

Breeding males at a young age really doesn't matter.
Some courtships can be a bit rough, but juvenile male panthers out weigh adult females most of the time.
I would say it's a safe bet that your male at 7 months will be potent.


Just thought I would add this:

Currently my female veiled is in the hole!
Wish her luck!

 

[lbesok]

Seems to me that an infertile clutch may be just as taxing but a bit easier on a smaller female because the eggs would be a bit smaller for her to pass. Seems to me smaller eggs may also reduce the chance of becoming egg bound, but IDK just a thought...
I think if a female is ready to lay, it's a waste for her to lay an in-fertile clutch for nothing.

 

[CarolenRunsen]

So let me get this streight.
I thought that it was just natural for a female to lay infirtile eggs every once and a while. Is it possible to reduce (or elliminate) her laying infertile eggs? We have no plans of breeding our female, going threw the whole egg laying thing is stressful for both us and the chameleon.

So if your female lays lots of eggs, it is a possible sign of over feeding? Our female layed approximatly 70 eggs last time.

 

[JoshCrane1]

high basking temps and overfeeding can contribute to large clutches. by regulating both of those, you can potentially have a female lay no eggs until fertilized.

 

[joefarah]

I like to blame infertile eggs on the males...

 

[desultadox]

I don't think I'd have a problem caring for the offspring... at least until I can rehome them. I'm mostly interested in the achievement of breeding these chameleons. Not only that, but they've been so restless lately to get to breed that I feel like THAT may be harming them. My female (Zeirya) hasn't been drinking the same, she just tries to run out of her cage toward her Romeo (Zenyx). If there was any significant negative effects to my girl's health, I definitely wouldn't allow it, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Funny thing is I let Zeirya in Zenyx's cage today and they kind of just stared at each other for a long while. She was displaying receptive coloration and he was definitely flaunting his stuff, but they scarcely moved a muscle for about 30 minutes+. It was close to dusk at that point, so they eventually retired for the night. Two days ago I had to pull her away right before he mounted her (I wasn't sure then if I would allow them)! Oh well, tomorrow's another day.