I could use some advice!

[ColorCham427]

hey all,

A little over a 4 months ago I started cup feeding one of my Ambilobes. It was a normal 32 oz deli cup. I would strictly feed him crickets, and he was using the cup daily without any skipped meals. I then found him with half his body in the cup. Then sooner I found him grabbing them just an inch away. It seems that he hadn't injured his tongue, but rather got spoiled and lazy... lol.

It's a shame because the whole shooting tongue ability is awesome, you all know that..


I tried letting loose crickets roam his cage, he had trouble getting them, and he didn't get the hang of using his tongue. The longest I've ever starved him was no more than 4 days. Still, he didn't try harder and atleast run after the crickets...


Lately I've been just feeding him Dubia by hand. This guy is so used to me hand feeding him! He is so spoiled lol, its cute but I feel totally responsible... because I am of course!

If he gets horn/silkworms he'll get them by himself, after I place them on one of his vines.

I really want him to start trying to shoot again. Whenever I hold a feeder a few inches away from him, his tongue shoots, just doesn't hit the target. His tongue does shoot straight. Sometimes 3 inches, but normally around the 5-6 inch range.

Note: his tongue doesn't shoot a couple inches upward ( I've heard, noticed myself that tongues that shoot upwards are not caused by laziness) IMO that happens from injury, or lack of nutrtion.

I think I am going to attempt the starvation period again. He isn't all that young, a year old.



How long is "long" with no food? Is this such a bad idea to continue trying if it doesnt work the first 6 days? (6+ days?)

I know I can keep him on a bowl-method diet. Just really would like him to start excercising that tongue of his.

He's not interested in foods that fly! If he did, I would so toss in some hawkmoths, flies or waxworm moths to get him looking around using his tongue in all different directions.


Any advice is much appreciated!!!

 

[sandrachameleon]

This doesnt sound like he is being lazy to me. It sounds like there is a problem. Either an injury or a deficiency, or maybe even a parasite or eyesight issue. What do you gutload with? What supplements do you use and how often? What UVB light do you have and is it a compact, spiral, long linear tube, or?

 

[cushcameleon]

From my experiences, my chameleons will miss occasionally but most often catch the target the first time. When my chameleons do miss, it is normally a distance error. They can sometimes mistake the bug as being in range, when it fact it is a couple inches further than the length of their tongue. However, when my chameleons do miss the target, which like I mentioned before happens very rarely, they move closer and adjust their body movement (if the first attempt misses, the second attempt is practically a guaranteed hit). Based off your post and my experiences with my chameleons, I think that your chameleon may be suffering some issues with its tongue. I don't think it somehow "forgot" how to use it because of being cup feed. Chameleons know how to use their tongues based off instinct, meaning they don't have to learn/relearn their skill. Since chameleons instinctively know how to use their tongues, a malfunctioning tongue is either the root cause of genetic deformity or some type of physical problem. By holding the bugs inches away from your chameleon, you have already tested his tongue-shooting abilities. If he was truly lazy, then I believe he would have tried to move closer to the bug, or he would have just not shot his tongue at all. Here's a link just so you can think of through the possibilities http://www.adcham.com/html/veterinary/vet-tongue-problems-kramer.html

 

[ColorCham427]

This doesnt sound like he is being lazy to me. It sounds like there is a problem. Either an injury or a deficiency, or maybe even a parasite or eyesight issue. What do you gutload with? What supplements do you use and how often? What UVB light do you have and is it a compact, spiral, long linear tube, or?

Everything Screameleons does. I take advice from Vincent all the time. I believe this has to do with him being too used to this "grabbing approach".

There is still possibility of him hitting a vine too hard? Normally chameleons hitting screens doesnt do much harm, right?

The deli cup had a screened bottom. The only solid thing in his cage that he could of really did any harm to his tongue, are the vines.

He always went ontop of the deli cup, because it was low in his cage. With a branch few inches above it. I don't see any possiblity of him shooting at the deli cup's plastic. Doesnt seem like it had a great chance.

If his UVB isnt quite working... as well as it should. Wouldnt other signs rise by now? His grip is strong as hell!!!, he moves like he's 3 weeks old lol. He's very strong, looks like he would be a good fighter in the wild.

He gets the same treatment as my other chameleons, nutrtion wise. I never mist their cages when feeding, so they all get the supplements as dusted. The water normally washes some of the powder off.

He gets hand fed, so I know for sure he's eating just like the others.

His eye sight seems really good/sharp. He always notices when I fill up his dripper.

He still gets very angry when I take out the camera.

Both of his eyes lock on the food like it's the hottest female Panther around.


I have slowed down his cal. intake. To 3 times a week. (his food is never dusted heavily, always a grey tint)

I just use cal. w/d3 as Vincent recommends. I dont use rep cal w/o d3.

Sandra, I would like to email u to talk more about gutloading. What foods are best with Dubia. Would that be cool?

 

[ColorCham427]

I'm going to take a couple videos of him with the dubia in the morning time. Hopfully it'll show some sort of sign of something. thanks for the replies/suggestions. Adcham is a good source of info!

 

[kinyonga]

What brands of supplements do you use?
What do you gutload insects with? Please be specific.

You said he gets the same treatment that the others get...what species are the others? What sex?

Do you cup feed them all?

 

[summoner12]

I think it is possible for a cham to get 'lazy' with the tongue... ya don't use it ya lose it... that's the way the world kinda works..... I have had this issue before... a cham is used to getting the food up close and doesn't practice the long range shots... why bother if the food is right there.

I try to exercise their tongues by getting there attention and pulling the food back as they get a look at it and become interested.....they realize its farther, pause, look around, refocus and shoot.

DO NOT pull the food away at the last second. And if you feel the cham didn't refocus on it, bring it closer..... You don't want them to over extend the muscle that pulls the tongue back into the mouth. That is when people have issues with their chams swallowing and biting off their tongue because they can't get it back in their mouth properly.

start out slow... just like you aren't going to run a marathon when you can't even walk up stairs without breaking a sweat.... you don't need to make the cham work tooo hard for the food. start where te can reach it, then pull back an inch or so...

 

[GooglezNvincent]

cup fed my Nosy Be, V, and i saw her one time, instead of shoot her tongue out she shot her body and lunged and bit the crickets in the cup, first time i saw that i stopped cup feding and she returned to shooting her tongue. I have no idea what it could be but this is my experience, may b itll help you.

 

[xanthoman]

dubia gutload

good dubia / cricket gut load is bee pollen , its not that expensive, as little as $10 lb, dubias love it and way better than that dog food crap that comes with most dubias mix with equal parts cham friendly veggies, and you can always sprinkle of your favorite dusting right on the bee pollen and dont use cfl

 

[ColorCham427]

What brands of supplements do you use?
What do you gutload insects with? Please be specific.

You said he gets the same treatment that the others get...what species are the others? What sex?

Do you cup feed them all?

I don't cup feed any of them anymore.

All are Ambilobe.

Rep cal w/d3 plus rep cal herptivite (as Screameleons uses)

I use a dry gutload that is very similar to the drygutload that's on the Kammer's website.

Wet gutloads:

Carrot, Kale, Sweet potato, romaine lettuce, egg yolk, apple, orange, melon, squash, silkworm chow.

 

[warpdrive]

I just use cal. w/d3 as Vincent recommends. I dont use rep cal w/o d3.

Rep cal w/d3 plus rep cal herptivite (as Screameleons uses)

I have not looked at any care sheets from screameleons, but using calcium w/D3 for everyday use, could be the problem.
if not, it will be problematic soon.

could you explain why you and/or vincent doesn't recammend the use of just plain calcium for everyday use?

Harry

edit: be forwarned that the liver and kidneys could be shutting down. organs could be mineraliszing now as we speak.
the over use of D3 can be quite toxic if over used.

 

[ColorCham427]

I have not looked at any care sheets from screameleons, but using calcium w/D3 for everyday use, could be the problem.
if not, it will be problematic soon.

could you explain why you and/or vincent doesn't recammend the use of just plain calcium for everyday use?

Harry

edit: be forwarned that the liver and kidneys could be shutting down. organs could be mineraliszing now as we speak.
the over use of D3 can be quite toxic if over used.

It's not for everyday use. Younger chameleons get it everyother day. Sub-adults get it every few days/ Adults get it couple times a week. This guy is just a year old and I believe he has growing to do.

My chameleons are inside most of the year. Out of the whole year, they probably only get 50 days outside.

Herptivite is used every 2 weeks.

 

[warpdrive]

It's not for everyday use. Younger chameleons get it everyother day. Sub-adults get it every few days/ Adults get it couple times a week. This guy is just a year old and I believe he has growing to do.

My chameleons are inside most of the year. Out of the whole year, they probably only get 50 days outside.

Herptivite is used every 2 weeks.

still way too much IMHO. yet I'm no expert.

I'll say it again, the use of D3 can be toxic and shut down organs as they can become hardened and stop working.
this could lead to tongue shooting problems way before death.

calcium w/D3 shouldn't be used for more then once a week even on babys.
for sub-adults, I wouldn't use it more then twice a month.
for adults, I personaly wouldn't use it more then once a month.

rep-cal w/D3 also has a high amount of D3 in it.
compleatly fine if used irregularly and not all the time.

regular phos free calcium should be used almost every feeding.
there is no real need for such excesive D3 intake...remember, you are using a UVB tube bulb like reptisun 5.0 for daily D3 intake.

if you are using this much D3 durring your feeding, you might want to PM a few experts on this forum to get a good idea as to what you should be doing.

seeing a vet and explaining what could be happening is also a good choice at this time before it gets worse.

again, I'm no expert. yet it is quite likely that he has already started becomming toxifide with way too much D3 in his body and could lead to death soon if husbandry is not changed.

if it were me, I would be turning off all my UVB bulbs for the next few days, and see a vet as soon as posable....again, wait for others to respond first.
then go out and buy some rep-cal w/o D3 in it for everyday use.

Harry

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."Rep cal w/d3 plus rep cal herptivite (as Screameleons uses)"...I only use each of these twice a month. At most feedings I dust with a phosphorous-free calcium powder (Rep-cal). The idea of using supplements it to balance the diet. Vitamin A, vitamin D3, phosphorous and calcium are the main players in bone health. If the bone weakens it will mean that the bone involved with shooting/aiming the tongue will weaken too and there is also an affect on the muscles when calcium is not in balance.

Exposure to UVB (that does not pass through glass or plastic) allows the chameleon to produce D3. The supplement twice a month is meant to ensure that it has enough without causing an overdose. D3 from SUPPLEMENTS can build up in the system but D3 from UVB is thought to be controlled by the chameleon's body as long as it can move in and out of the UVB when it needs to.

Many of the insects have a poor ratio of calcium to phos. so dusting at most feedings is to make up for that....but you're skipping that part.

Vitamin A from preformed sources can also build up in the system...so if you use only vitamins with beta carotene sources it won't. However, its not proven that all/any chameleons can convert beta carotene so a little preformed can be given once in a while to make sure that they get it....without overdoing it. Excess vitamin A can prevent the D3 from doing its job and lead to MBD....which is why I was asking for specific information about the supplements and the gutload. Overdoing the vitamin A and D3 can lead to organ damage too.

For your wet gutload...you can also include collards, dandelion greens, endive, escarole, mustard greens...and BTW your chameleon will get vitamin A from the egg yolk. I don't know what's in the dry you are using but I would look to see what's in it in the way of phos., calcium, D3 and vitamin A.

As far as this being the only chameleon of yours with this issue...its possible that you are "on the edge" of the necessary nutrient levels and he is not getting enough for his system. I'm not a vet so I can only give you my best guess. If it continues when/if you add more calcium to his diet, then you might want to see a vet about it.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Sandra, I would like to email u to talk more about gutloading. What foods are best with Dubia. Would that be cool?

You're welcome to PM me, absolutely.

Also feel free to browse my blog. There's two sections/categories to it. One of them has useful info grouped by subject area (gutloading, lighting, supplements, feeders) and the other section of the blog is a diary of what my chameleons eat.

An injury could cause tongue trouble. But the way you describe it sounds like a deficiency to me. I am not a vet, this is just my opinion.

I primarily cup feed all my chameleons.
In well over ten years of this practise, not one has become "lazy" or unable to shoot its tongue the full distance when it wants or needs to.