Hatchling and Neonatal mortality

FFSTRescue

FFSTRescue

New Member
I would like to hear different peoples' experiences about mortality rate and time of occurance while raising hatchlings and neonates for different species. How many hatchlings or neonates die after hatching or birth with the different species you have bred? When they have died, have the majority of them died within a certain amount of time after hatching or birth? If so, when was that and did you notice that the longer time goes by that they are alive, the longer their chances of survival? I am just wondering because I have lost some Senegals from the clutch I am raising, and it was 3 the first day, 2 the second day, and 1 the third day, and a day went by and then another one died. Also, I lost one Rudis so far, and this is day 3, so from peoples' experiences, if they are going to die, is it usually in the first day, few days, week, etc? I know it varies based on species, so I hope people will add many different species and their experiences with those species to this thread.
Any experiences would add nicely to this thread and be greatly appreciated by many. Thank you
 
Also, have people noticed signs before death, or do you just find them dead? I have noticed increased sleeping, weakness, then eventually ataxia (uncoordinated limb and head movement) and then death. Is this what other people have experienced?
 
Senegals-there are not many sucess stories with even getting eggs let alone surviving neonates. With Veileds, I had I beleive 81 eggs, with 69 of them making it to hatch. All hatched and survived. I lost one that got his tongue caught on a plastic plant at a few weeks old. I have not had as much sucess with Panthers. Weirdly enough with last years babies, the initial clutch had a high die off rate. Most died off within the first 2 weeks. The retained clutch yielded much better results, even though they hatched much sooner then the first. There are plenty of people however that have 100% sucess rates with Panthers. With pygmies I lost my entire first clutch-the eggs sweat, but babies never make it entirely out of the eggs. With all of the next dozen or so clutches I have hatched almost 100% with low neonate die off. Female health and age has alot to do with neonate viability. There are still far too many people acquiring females and breeding them right away with little regard to acclimation and overall health.
 
FFSTRescue said:
Also, have people noticed signs before death, or do you just find them dead? I have noticed increased sleeping, weakness, then eventually ataxia (uncoordinated limb and head movement) and then death. Is this what other people have experienced?
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Yes-this is exactly what I have found.
 
Thanks for that, it really sounds like almost all of their vitality depends on the health of the mother, like you said, given people raise them under the correct condition.
 
With my Montium I recently hatched 3 out of 6 has made it to 1.5 months old. All 3 that passed looked completely healthy and normal. All 6 made it to 1 month old and then they started falling out... It is sad but there is nothing you can do about it. All you can do is provide optimal conditions and hope for the best.

Dustin
 
Warrix642 said:
With my Montium I recently hatched 3 out of 6 has made it to 1.5 months old. All 3 that passed looked completely healthy and normal. All 6 made it to 1 month old and then they started falling out... It is sad but there is nothing you can do about it. All you can do is provide optimal conditions and hope for the best.

Dustin
Click to expand...

So it sounds like there was no pattern with your experience, they just couldn't make it. That is so disheartening to know, that it is out of our hands and not even the best conditions can allow them to thrive. That is what I'm afraid of, getting my hopes up and having them die after caring for them for a couple of months. But I guess everything is a learning experience.
 
I've had, so far, 100% hatching success with panthers. However, from one clutch (awhile ago) there was one baby that didnt live past the first week, and one that grew extremely slowly and was later found to have very bad eyesight (and thus difficulty eating). It would have died had I not decided to intervene and handfeed. Despite my efforts she remained small and didnt make it much beyond her second year. Otherwise, so far, all of them have survived to the three month mark at least (after which I've lost track of some of the ones sold so I cant be sure how long they all have lived).

edit:
FFSTRescue said:
Also, have people noticed signs before death, or do you just find them dead?
Click to expand...
The one just failed to thrive, didnt move much, never noticed it eat, separated it thinking it needed TLC, but then found it dead on the floor of the enclosure next day.
 
I can only remember the last few clutches. Both of my last 2 veileds clutches were 100% hatch & 100% thrive. Now my quads not as well. First clutch had temp problems, retained clutch 11 eggs, 2 went bad, 9 hatched are are 3 months old, second retained clutch all went bad. That is all the breeding or hatching from an acquired gravid female for the last couple of years.
 
With the C. chamaeleons I had 95% hatch rate of fertile eggs and about a 90% survival rate at 6 months of age. They showed similar signs of impending death to what you mentioned FFSTRescue.

With veileds I have had 100% hatch rate over many years and about 95% survival rate at about 3 months (when they would leave my care). Babies that I held back all lived.

With other species I have had various results....but don't forget that I have dealt a lot with WC's and it depends somewhat on the condition of the adults when I got them in.

I lost one whole clutch of Deremensis and never did find out why...but the tops of the heads would change to an odd color and each time it happened the baby would die the next day. They were hatched a little early and I don't know if that was part of the problem or if they had something wrong with them since the parents were recent imports (mated in captivity, etc....but hadn't been with me long before the mating).

How are you keeping the babies? Temperature, etc.
 
kinyonga said:
With the C. chamaeleons I had 95% hatch rate of fertile eggs and about a 90% survival rate at 6 months of age. They showed similar signs of impending death to what you mentioned FFSTRescue.

With veileds I have had 100% hatch rate over many years and about 95% survival rate at about 3 months (when they would leave my care). Babies that I held back all lived.

With other species I have had various results....but don't forget that I have dealt a lot with WC's and it depends somewhat on the condition of the adults when I got them in.

I lost one whole clutch of Deremensis and never did find out why...but the tops of the heads would change to an odd color and each time it happened the baby would die the next day. They were hatched a little early and I don't know if that was part of the problem or if they had something wrong with them since the parents were recent imports (mated in captivity, etc....but hadn't been with me long before the mating).

How are you keeping the babies? Temperature, etc.
Click to expand...

How old were the Deremensis when they died?

I have been testing the Senegal hatchlings, and observing them and going off of basic animal behavior to determine if they are comfortable or not, so I started keeping them at about 80 basking, 75 ambient, 70 night temp, but they weren't very active, didn't seem very alert, and I lost three doing that. Then I have been slowly increasing the temp (I have alot of land and a large area around my house that has various microclimates, and the temp varies greatly depending on where I place them and I just use a temp gun). So I changed to 85 the next day basking, 80 ambient, 65 at night. Then the die-off declined, but there was still some mortality. So I didn't know if the increased basking temps or the cooler night temps helped. They still seemed lethargic and not as alert as they should be, but better than before. I have been keeping them cooler than I would adults because from what I have learned, babies should always be kept cooler than the adults, but with Senegals, I think that might be wrong. So then over the past couple of days, I had them in direct sun (though they would seek shaded areas in their cage to thermoregulate if needed), and they seemed much more alert, none were lethargic, they were all eating, and I haven't lost any since then, but I will let you know more tomorrow. They would go back and forth from shade under the leaves into the sun, did not show any signs of discomfort. The temperatures then were 90 basking, 82/83 in the shade, and 65 at night. At one point, I got busy and didn't monitor the temps for about an hour (I have no life right now, I took a month off work and I spend all day trying to determine what will work best for their vitality since there is no one that really has been too successful and I want to know what will work) so during that hour, it got up to about 95. I panicked and quickly went out there when I realized that it got so hot and when I checked on them, they were active, some were out basking, some were hiding under the leaves, but they seemed fine. After that happened, that was the first night that I didn't lose one or have a sickly looking one the next day. I think these little guys may thrive under heat just like their elders. I am going to stick with the 90 basking, 82 +/- ambient (shade) and 65 at night and see if the success continues with that. I spray them about every 3 hours with a very fine mist. I will spray them for about 15 minutes in the morning, but since they are babies and I don't know how well this species does with water, I spray a little, let them dry a bit, spray them again, etc. I'm afraid they will aspirate if I spray too much for too long. And the water definitely has to be warm. I used colder water to cool them down after they were outside in 95 degrees, and it just stressed them out and they didn't drink. So I keep the water in the sun by their cage and use that temp for them. So far so good, we'll see how things go.
The sternfeldi I am keeping at about 75 during the day in the shade, and 58-60 at night. I do have to bring them inside, where it is about 72, if it gets above 80, but I always make sure it is 60 degrees or lower at night for them as that has been linked to more success than higher night temps.
 
Thanks for the information!
I hope you have it solved now and the rest will do well for you!

As for the Deremensis...I don't have my record book available right now (its packed away due to renovations) but they would die off one or two a day for a couple of weeks...all in a row. It was definitely when they were very young.
 
kinyonga said:
Thanks for the information!
I hope you have it solved now and the rest will do well for you!

As for the Deremensis...I don't have my record book available right now (its packed away due to renovations) but they would die off one or two a day for a couple of weeks...all in a row. It was definitely when they were very young.
Click to expand...

here's hoping :eek:
 
I have been wondering about mortality rates myself. Within the last month I lost two neonates from a small clutch of three that were sired by my avatar breeder. The lone survivor appears to be doing well and is approaching three weeks old. It is very disheartening when you monitor something for seven months only to witness it perish within a weeks time.

In my case, I think it was due to a lack of food. I had a difficult time obtaining pinheads/fruit flies. My orders (which came from a reputable vendor) where either dead upon arrival or the containers were empty. My only option was Petco fruit flies although that was not much of an option. I have since acquired both healthy fruit fly cultures and pinheads and have had no issues since (fingers crossed) :D.
 
FFSTRescue said:
I am going to stick with the 90 basking, 82 +/- ambient (shade) and 65 at night and see if the success continues with that. I spray them about every 3 hours with a very fine mist. I will spray them for about 15 minutes in the morning, but since they are babies and I don't know how well this species does with water, I spray a little, let them dry a bit, spray them again, etc. I'm afraid they will aspirate if I spray too much for too long. And the water definitely has to be warm. I used colder water to cool them down after they were outside in 95 degrees, and it just stressed them out and they didn't drink. So I keep the water in the sun by their cage and use that temp for them. So far so good, we'll see how things go.
.
Click to expand...

That's a pretty cool way to spend a month off of work in my opinion. :) Any updates on how the warmer method has been working?
 
Monkeykungphu said:
That's a pretty cool way to spend a month off of work in my opinion. :) Any updates on how the warmer method has been working?
Click to expand...

It is pretty nice to have some time off :D
I haven't lost another Senegal yet since I have been doing the warmer temps. The higher the temps, the more they eat though! These guys can eat!!! I dump tons of fruit flies in there twice daily... and I thought Veilds were bad!
 
Knock on wood. Let's not jump the gun! :)
Every day I wake up and look in the Senegal cage expecting to find more dead, and haven't. I am so relieved! But I am afraid the second I stop worrying about them, I will find more dead.
 
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