ataraxia
Avid Member
I was sent this reply after giving this link to a person making and distributing his own gut load. http://www.store.repashy.com/can-feeder-insect-diets-contribute-to-gout-in-reptiles.html
John,
As Mr Repashy points out himself roaches do fine on 20+% protein based dry diets and they have for years. What did not click for him was that when a dry diet is fed in combination with a low protein vegetable and water crystals the insects are than able to modify their own protein intake as needed for their sex, age, or reproductive status.
A typical dubia colony of mixed sex and sizes will consume 19% protein, when provided with dietary components that do not allow the consumption of this average protein level the roaches increase their volume of food intake and waste production.
It is typical of many species to increase total dietary intake when a certain nutrient is in short supply, the method works by collecting as much food as is possible taking what is needed and excreting the remainder. If protein is in short supply in a particular diet, increase consumption to the point where dietary needs are met, excrete the remainder of the diet more or less unused.
Roaches are able as Mr Repashy points out to convert uric acid into various proteins for later use, he failed to directly mention that the same bacterium that converts uric acid into protein also limits the total level of uric acid maintained in the roach. Roaches fed any level of excess protein will develop this storage of uric acid, and once the level is maxed out it will remain constant.
Roaches typically are higher in protein than other feeder insects, this is a factor that must be taken into consideration when they are being used as feeders. I have mentioned on a number of forums that roaches should be fed along with other insects to create a meal that is ultimately lower in total protein.
Preformed vitamins and animal proteins do not harm chameleons when fed to insects, it is improper diet and supplementation that result in the demise of reptiles of all types.
The only preformed vitamin of note that one would typically consider risky is vitamin D3 which is added at 816IU/kg of dry diet, in my experience this is just enough to show a measurable improvement in bone growth and egg shell formation when used regularly along with lightly dusting with a quality calcium supplement containing low levels of vitamin D3 (20,000IU/kg).
There are other preformed vitamins included in the diet, though the fat soluble vitamins are included at trace levels so as to keep them included and eliminate hypovitamosis but not risk hypervitamosis. The water soluble vitamins are included at levels I have found to be effective.
As for animal proteins harming your chameleons, the insects themselves are composed of animal proteins, and each of the proteins are no different be them sourced from plants or from animals, this is a basic chemistry fact that we cannot alter. My use of animal proteins takes advantage of the fact that animals tend to have more of some proteins than plants, thus I can fill in gaps in the protein portion of the nutritional makeup of my diets far less expensively than purchasing individual and highly refined amino acids to do the same thing.
I do supply several chameleon owners and a breeder with insect diets and have done so for a number of years, in no case has there ever been a problem with my customers animals, as well I can assure you that I feed off some 10-14k insects a day that are all fed the same diets I sell, I would not risk selling a product that was not tested daily on my own animals first. In fact I tend to delay introduction of any formula change until I have allowed a trial to run through at least F2 with a breeding project.
John,
As Mr Repashy points out himself roaches do fine on 20+% protein based dry diets and they have for years. What did not click for him was that when a dry diet is fed in combination with a low protein vegetable and water crystals the insects are than able to modify their own protein intake as needed for their sex, age, or reproductive status.
A typical dubia colony of mixed sex and sizes will consume 19% protein, when provided with dietary components that do not allow the consumption of this average protein level the roaches increase their volume of food intake and waste production.
It is typical of many species to increase total dietary intake when a certain nutrient is in short supply, the method works by collecting as much food as is possible taking what is needed and excreting the remainder. If protein is in short supply in a particular diet, increase consumption to the point where dietary needs are met, excrete the remainder of the diet more or less unused.
Roaches are able as Mr Repashy points out to convert uric acid into various proteins for later use, he failed to directly mention that the same bacterium that converts uric acid into protein also limits the total level of uric acid maintained in the roach. Roaches fed any level of excess protein will develop this storage of uric acid, and once the level is maxed out it will remain constant.
Roaches typically are higher in protein than other feeder insects, this is a factor that must be taken into consideration when they are being used as feeders. I have mentioned on a number of forums that roaches should be fed along with other insects to create a meal that is ultimately lower in total protein.
Preformed vitamins and animal proteins do not harm chameleons when fed to insects, it is improper diet and supplementation that result in the demise of reptiles of all types.
The only preformed vitamin of note that one would typically consider risky is vitamin D3 which is added at 816IU/kg of dry diet, in my experience this is just enough to show a measurable improvement in bone growth and egg shell formation when used regularly along with lightly dusting with a quality calcium supplement containing low levels of vitamin D3 (20,000IU/kg).
There are other preformed vitamins included in the diet, though the fat soluble vitamins are included at trace levels so as to keep them included and eliminate hypovitamosis but not risk hypervitamosis. The water soluble vitamins are included at levels I have found to be effective.
As for animal proteins harming your chameleons, the insects themselves are composed of animal proteins, and each of the proteins are no different be them sourced from plants or from animals, this is a basic chemistry fact that we cannot alter. My use of animal proteins takes advantage of the fact that animals tend to have more of some proteins than plants, thus I can fill in gaps in the protein portion of the nutritional makeup of my diets far less expensively than purchasing individual and highly refined amino acids to do the same thing.
I do supply several chameleon owners and a breeder with insect diets and have done so for a number of years, in no case has there ever been a problem with my customers animals, as well I can assure you that I feed off some 10-14k insects a day that are all fed the same diets I sell, I would not risk selling a product that was not tested daily on my own animals first. In fact I tend to delay introduction of any formula change until I have allowed a trial to run through at least F2 with a breeding project.
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