Crazy urate!

[ZacharyLeesWife]

When I went to clean Dilly's cage this evening I found this MASSIVE urate, and an accompanied very large poop. Her diet has been very different but her water consumption hasn't changed at all. She only poops every 3 days or so, I was attributing that to the lower fat feeders. Would her change in poop contribute to the change in urate? Is a vet visit warranted? This is the third or fourth post-laying poop that had the strange urate.

 

[Andee]

Is that only the urate part? I am not quite sure if it's something to be checked out by a vet, but it definitely doesn't look normal for only a urate. What are the feeders you are feeding her in detail? Like what do most meals end up looking like for her?

 

[Andee]

Did you break it open at all? Or you know... Dissect the poop? That sounds so weird.... But it's usually what I do if I have a weird fecal or urate. I usually will get gloves or something to protect my hands like a plastic sandwich bag and seriously just mash it between my fingers. Sometimes there are undigested feeders or something that could point at digestive issues. I do this with all my animals that have strange feces... Except my cats.... For some reason I am far more likely to throw up when I touch cat poop or scoop litter boxes at all.

 

[ZacharyLeesWife]

Is that only the urate part? I am not quite sure if it's something to be checked out by a vet, but it definitely doesn't look normal for only a urate. What are the feeders you are feeding her in detail? Like what do most meals end up looking like for her?

That's just the urate, the poop was big but not abnormal. I did check it, other than a few cricket legs it was digested and soft. The poop in question had been there for long enough that the urate was hardened so I am not sure of it's original texture but it's not chalky like most unnoticed urates, it's totally solid. Since her diet went in effect, she's getting either 2-3 fairly large hornworms (they're 3rd instar), 6-8 Medium crix, 3-5 medium dubia, or 10 small/medium BSFL every other day. I cut the supers, mealworms, and out waxworms completely. She is not pooping near as often since she laid her clutch. Instead of daily, she's going every 3-4 days buy the poops are pretty big. Her water schedule hasn't changed. I put 2 ice cubes on her lid twice a day and mist 2-3 times a day. She gets showers twice a week.

 

[Andee]

What was your after laying care like? How many feeders and how often? How much were you hydrating and what kinds of hydration were you offering? Supplementation?

 

[Andee]

In my opinion (though I have never had a female who has laid for me, but have read a lot into it and absorbed a lot information in my last 3-4 years of chameleon care), since this isn't her first couple bowel movements after she laid (which it's definitely more understandable in that case) I would assume she is dehydrated? considering the color and texture? Though I could be wrong. I will try to look some things up while you answer.

Edit: do you remember he clutch size?

 

[ZacharyLeesWife]

What was your after laying care like? How many feeders and how often? How much were you hydrating and what kinds of hydration were you offering? Supplementation?

In my opinion (though I have never had a female who has laid for me, but have read a lot into it and absorbed a lot information in my last 3-4 years of chameleon care), since this isn't her first couple bowel movements after she laid (which it's definitely more understandable in that case) I would assume she is dehydrated? considering the color and texture? Though I could be wrong. I will try to look some things up while you answer.

Edit: do you remember he clutch size?

Her clutch was 55 eggs. I let her finish covering them and after she crawled up to her perch I gave her a long shower. She drank quite a bit, and also took a dose of reptaboost from a syringe. She ate like a horse, mostly horn worms and a few wax worms that were dusted with calcium w/o D3. She ate 4-5 2nd instar horn worms a day and 4 or 5 waxworms or 2-3 butterworms, I fed her eat daily for the first few days. She's back on her normal supplement schedule now and the new diet. What worries me is that she's not showing any other signs of dehydration, her eyes are fine and she's kinda lazy but no less active than normal. Her grip is good. I'm feeding a lot of horn worms because my current batch are starting to outgrow being feeders, that should help. I'll start daily showers. I'm thinking about a vet visit just in case, before it becomes critical if there's something else going on. I expected some changes in poop because of the change in diet but I don't like the way her urates changed too. I'd like an x-ray anyway, just to be sure she's not retaining any eggs. She has a permanent lay bin in her cage but she's not shown any interest in it.

 

[ZacharyLeesWife]

@Andee Would not pooping daily explain the odd urate? The diet change covers the reason for less frequent poop and I found this thread about urate turning an orange color because they are stored longer with infrequent bowel movements so some reabsorbtion could be going on.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/what-does-orange-urate-really-mean.89658/
It would explain why it goes from bright white to the orange. I found the poop in question on the cage floor, the orange end was attached to the poo.

 

[ZacharyLeesWife]

The poop du jour! It's another really big one, and rather slimy but that's definitely the hornworm heavy diet. Nothing undigested. I think the problem is that she's starting to enjoy keeping me up all night with worry.

 

[Andee]

Actually that last poop you posted is far much less worrying. What I was more worried about with the other urate, was the huge length and the fact that it dried solid. From the looks of it she just needed a bit more hydration. You can probably back off a bit on the hornworms now. She probably just need to adjust to the new diet, since her diet for after care was mostly worms. The reason the feces in this bowel movement is so liquids is because of the hornworms yes, so it seems like she has evened out a bit. If she switches back to the other strange urate try increasing a misting session or showering her to see if it helps.

 

[ZacharyLeesWife]

Actually that last poop you posted is far much less worrying. What I was more worried about with the other urate, was the huge length and the fact that it dried solid. From the looks of it she just needed a bit more hydration. You can probably back off a bit on the hornworms now. She probably just need to adjust to the new diet, since her diet for after care was mostly worms. The reason the feces in this bowel movement is so liquids is because of the hornworms yes, so it seems like she has evened out a bit. If she switches back to the other strange urate try increasing a misting session or showering her to see if it helps.

I'm much happier with today's poo! I did go ahead and make a vet appointment for Friday, an abundance of caution I suppose. I'd like a quick scan on her to see her bone density, one of her front legs is looking a little swollen to me. She's moving around ok and has good grip, but I'm just not comfortable with it. She's had so much going on between the clutch and the diet, a vet visit now might catch an issue in it's infancy.

 

[Andee]

I agree it's always good to catch things with these guys especially before anything bad happens if you can reverse it early without too much damage. Especially with laying females. I hope it's all simple. I plan to make an appointment for my panther male soon. Since his cornea burn, and the reintroduction of his uvb light it's been hard judging how well he's adjusting to having the harsher artificial lights back in his life. However I have a feeling he has a stuck shed in his eye that he needs help flushing out. I have done several showers and he doesn't really clean his eyes well. I want to talk to the vet about it. He is regularly keeping one eye completely closed and sometimes resting both. Which is not something he did in the first week or two. I want to make sure his eyes don't do a relapse with his burn. But he did have a huge shed around his eyes recently so it could be very likely that it's a stuck shed that's bothering him.

 

[ZacharyLeesWife]

I agree it's always good to catch things with these guys especially before anything bad happens if you can reverse it early without too much damage. Especially with laying females. I hope it's all simple. I plan to make an appointment for my panther male soon. Since his cornea burn, and the reintroduction of his uvb light it's been hard judging how well he's adjusting to having the harsher artificial lights back in his life. However I have a feeling he has a stuck shed in his eye that he needs help flushing out. I have done several showers and he doesn't really clean his eyes well. I want to talk to the vet about it. He is regularly keeping one eye completely closed and sometimes resting both. Which is not something he did in the first week or two. I want to make sure his eyes don't do a relapse with his burn. But he did have a huge shed around his eyes recently so it could be very likely that it's a stuck shed that's bothering him.

I hope it's just a stuck shed! Chameleons are so rewarding as pets, but it seems like so many things can go wrong with them. I have an extremely strict policy on pets in general, if I can't afford an emergency vet visit then I can't afford the animals. Reptiles especially!

 

[Andee]

A lot of things can wrong with a lot of animals. The problem with Ryker started happening when I tried a way to find a way to conserve bulbs and stop blowing them. I wish I had never changed from incandescent to try out halogen in the first place it caused so many problems

 

[ZacharyLeesWife]

A lot of things can wrong with a lot of animals. The problem with Ryker started happening when I tried a way to find a way to conserve bulbs and stop blowing them. I wish I had never changed from incandescent to try out halogen in the first place it caused so many problems

I tried a mercury bulb for my guys and it was a disaster, it literally exploded. I decided that the standard 5.0 bulbs are reliable enough and cheap to replace on schedule so I'm sticking with them. I use the old ones on a timer in my bug farm for heat and day/night cycle to prevent diapause. I have to say, even with 15+ years of reptile experience the chameleons are a huge learning experience!

 

[Andee]

I honestly would never use mercury bulbs with chameleons. They put off way too much heat even the lower wattages. But yeah chameleons are exhausting with how much you are constantly learning, but it never gets boring ever.