Blind cowboy

[Jono]

I think it is very apparent that he is very healthy and that it was a problem from before I got him, anything he had has already healed extremely well.

The problem i was looking at was his tongue missing and as i stated from the beginning I'm 99% sure its an injury not a deficiency. These things happen and my little guy has just taken it in his stride.

Also I know what works in my situation so before anyone goes on any forum crusades...

I was just looking for another point of view.

 

[Jono]

Jono, the fractures on both limbs or bowing on both limbs is extremely common in MBD cases. Happens all the time. The pet store you got your boy is probably the one who caused the issue. They got young chams from multiple breeders and then did not provide the proper lighting or supplimentation and caused the issue with all they chams they had. This also happens all the time. Your boy was in a peak growing period when you purchased him. An MBD problem will escalate extremely quickly at that age. It did not take much time at the pet store to develop the problem.

You bought him and gave him what he needed and his bones calcified and the breaks fused. The only other thing that would have helped, had you known, was to splint the legs straight so that they would heal and calcify in a more natural position. Splinting does work. There is nothing that can be done to straighten them now and he gets along fine and is active and mobile. You can forget the MBD issue. You corrected that. Just get rid of the D3 and cod liver oil. I think you will find the tongue issue will get better of time. You will also prevent his premature death.

Thanks will do.

 

[kinyonga]

Calcium, phosphorous, D3 and vitamin A are all important players in bone health...and they play roles in other important body functions too. They need to be in balance.

Exposure to UVB either from sunlight or UVB light (neither of which should pass through glass or plastic) allows the chameleon to produce D3 which allows the chameleon to use the calcium provided for it. If the chameleon is in direct sunlight, then it likely won't need any other D3. As long as the chameleon can move in and out of the sunlight, then its shouldn't end up with too much D3 being produced in the body from exposure to the UVB. D3 from SUPPLEMENTS can build up in the system though.

Most/many of the feeder insects used in captivity have poor ratios of calcium to phosphorous so dusting the insects before they are fed to the chameleon with a phos.-free calcium powder helps to make up for this.

Dusting a couple of times a month with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene source (prOformed) of vitamin A. will ensure that it gets all the vitamins it needs without having to worry about overdoing the vitamin A. Beta carotene is only converted as needed. Now, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene...so once in a while they can be given a tiny dose of prEformed vitamin A. (However, I have never done this with my veileds and they live long healthy lives.) Excess prEformed vitamin A can prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD.

Since my chameleons get their UVB almost exclusively from an artificial source (UVB light), I dust the insects with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder twice a month lightly. This ensures that they get enough D3 without overdosing it....something to be careful of since D3 from supplements can build up in the system.

I gutload/feed my insects a nutritious diet. For crickets, roaches, superworms a wide assortment of greens (dandelions, collards, kale, escarole, endive, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, parsnips, squash, zucchini, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, celery leaves, etc.).

Now...you said..."gut loader I can find with fresh veggies for moisture. He prefers crickets that also have a bit of that flaky fish food in them. + occasional calcium/vitamin dusting" and "T-Rex Calcium Plus as my main cricket food and a 2:1 Calcium/Phosphorus+Vitamin (also T-Rex) duster"...as I stated above...I dust at most feedings with calcium to make up for the poor ratio of calcium to phos. in many of the feeder insects.

You said..."His stools are regular and when he very occasionally misses passing for more than a 4 or 5 days (usually if the weather is cold) I will give him 2 or 3 crickets dipped in cod-liver oil" and "My gut loader and my duster both have D3 and are cover pretty comprehensively calcium and the rest."...cod liver oil has D3 and preformed vitamin A in it. Check the fish food to see if it also has D3 and preformed vitamin A in it.

Signs of calcium issues include but are not limited to...crooked/deformed/broken bones, failure to exhibit trunkal lifting, tongue dysfunction, tremors, constipation, soft jaw bone and/or casque,

IMHO, it appears that you are not giving it enough calcium and you are giving it too much preformed vitamin A and D3 from supplements...and then there's the phos. in the supplement too. I am not a vet and my opinions come only from 25+ years of experience with chameleons and other reptiles and from what I have read and been told.

You said..."It is a high grade vitamin brand so I do like them to have some of it but will keep an eye out for gout."...gout is better prevented than treated in chameleons...so it would be better IMHO to avoid things that can lead to it rather than try to deal with it when it happens.

Here are some sites that will explain the relationship of calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A and talk about gout...
http://www.adcham.com/html/veterinary/mbd-fractures-kramer.html
http://chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=102
http://web.archive.org/web/20060502...rnals.com/vet/index.php?show=5.Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20060421.../index.php?show=6.Vitamin.D3.and.Calcium.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20060502...als.com/vet/index.php?show=8.Gout.Basics.html
http://www.tracyhicks.com/MBD.htm

There are some nutrition articles on this site...
http://chameleonnews.com/?page=reference

chambabysitter1 said..."MBD usually occurs from improper lighting"...not exactly...its to do with an imbalance in the system and although lack of proper lighting can be a big factor in it, it involves much more than that.

 

[Jono]

Thank you all for taking time to formulate such informative answers, I will definitely take all of this into consideration.
However besides a reduction in some of the trace elements I am not going to change my routine much as it has been working exceptionally well for George and he is strong and healthy and most importantly happy.

At some point all these laboratory made chemicals are going do something other than what they have told us in their sales pitch.

The effectiveness of natural sunlight, living plants and healthy crickets seems to have been overlooked somewhat. I have used artificial lighting in other applications before and I know that they work well but...
if you grow the same thing under a light and under the sun you are going to get two completely different things.

The sun gives me a larger margin to let him live naturally and since he hasnt been sick a day since I've had him I think its safe to say it works.
I do wish I had known to splint his legs though but it hasn't even slowed him down, his 4m dash across the balcony is testament to that.

He shot again the morning on his own but it is still high and to the right in the exact same spot so I'm convinced hes pulled a ligament or muscle controlling his hyoid bone so while he is lined up properly his tongue isn't.
Not something I think would ever get better but I think he might start to make the recalculation on his own at some point if he can keep at it.

Either way it appears hes a little trooper anyway so he will make himself a good life regardless!

 

[kinyonga]

All the sun in the world will not solve the problem of a lack of calcium. The chameleon needs enough calcium to go with the D3 it will produce from exposure to the sun.

All the sun in the world will not make the balance of calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A, etc. correct when you are overdoing them.

 

[Jono]

Sun and the correct, natural diet will work without excessive supplements just as it has for the last million years.


Edit:
Everyone seems to have completely missed that there is nothing wrong with George. Anything he had before I got him has completely healed. I was looking for another point of view regarding a tongue injury and all any one seems to be doing is telling me what supplements I should or should not be giving him.

While this is my first veiled this is not my first chameleon.

I have raised 7 in total, all to very respectable ages and WITHOUT excessive supplements and without any artificial lighting.

These are wild animals after all, not chemistry sets! Given the correct conditions they will do what they evolved to do with very little help.

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."Given the correct conditions they will do what they evolved to do with very little help"...but part of the right conditions includes a balanced diet...a diet that they would get naturally in the wild. How do you provide them with the same nutrients they get in the wild when you can't possibly feed them the same variety of insects that they would get in the wild?

Granted...being in Cape Town you will have a better chance of keeping them in a set-up that is more natural than I will ever have in Canada...but are you feeding them a totally natural diet?

Many (other) nutrients they will get from their insect diet...but since most of the feeder insects have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorous, how do you make up for the calcium?

BTW...I've been keeping chameleons and numerous other lizards, turtles, etc. for over 25 years....and a lot more than 7 chameleons...and although the tongue issue could be from an injury, without the proper amount of calcium AND a balance between the 4 nutrients that play a big part in bone health, I wonder. Calcium not only affects bone health, it affects the muscles...and since the tongue aim relies not only on a healthy hyoid bone but healthy muscles that control its motion...I'm still betting on it not being an injury. I'm always happy to be proven wrong though.

Hope your chameleon recovers the proper use of its tongue!

 

[Billy Quan]

He shot again the morning on his own but it is still high and to the right in the exact same spot so I'm convinced hes pulled a ligament or muscle controlling his hyoid bone so while he is lined up properly his tongue isn't.
Not something I think would ever get better but I think he might start to make the recalculation on his own at some point if he can keep at it.

Either way it appears hes a little trooper anyway so he will make himself a good life regardless!

Hello, i am a newbie. . . i hope you don't mind me butting in for a moment with a hypothesis: Is it possible that your cham's hyoid bone has become misaligned due to voids in the bone material being filled; now that the supplementation/light/diet are correct? sorry if that sounds stupid. . .

forget about the how of it, if the misses are consistently high and to the right maybe it's the hyoid or as you said a ligament/bruise etc. either way it sounds like you are doing your best and taking great care of a guy who got a rough start. Keep up the good work, and hopefully in time your guy will be right as rain!! good luck, may his recovery be full and speedy!

 

[Jono]

I do make sure that he has a large amount of calcium, D3 etc. available but as much as possible (as in the past) I try to use the digestive systems of my crickets to act as a buffer. The sun allows him to metabolize it much more efficiently so I don't need to give him as much.

I concur that there are various elements that he cannot attain from the crickets such as retinol, so I do dust and supplement to try and balance those but again as far as possible I try and do this with naturally occurring products (such as the cod-liver oil) and as little as possible. Prevention is better than cure after all but with such small critters its so easy to overdo it.

Haha I'm starting to sound a bit like those hippies who wont let their kids eat anything that isn't organic but I guess the concept is the same.

We are lucky enough to have chameleons occurring naturally here pretty much everywhere, its not uncommon to see 2 or 3 in the space of a morning if you are working in the garden. Granted these are dwarf chameleons so different in their chemical makeup but not so far down from the evolutionary split as to be completely different.

I think part of my success in the past has also been that I use all live plants which attract all the bugs that chams eat naturally. I also give my chams free range of a variety of growing vegetables. George does enjoy a bit of ficus leaf occasionally but his favorite veg is definitely the little sprouts just after they come out the ground. Hes become pretty good at shearing them clean off and can go through a seedling tray in no time.

There is always something to learn! and so I do appreciate the time ppl have taken to post here. Thanks!

On another note I'm super chuffed today as I've have been accepted as a volunteer at the Two Oceans Aquarium! They are going to send me on an 8 week course to learn husbandry for invertebrates (Squid, octopi, urchins etc.) as well as all the aquatic plants. They have a large amphibian display at the moment so I'm hoping to get in on some of that action

 

[Jono]

Hello, i am a newbie. . . i hope you don't mind me butting in for a moment with a hypothesis: Is it possible that your cham's hyoid bone has become misaligned due to voids in the bone material being filled; now that the supplementation/light/diet are correct? sorry if that sounds stupid. . .

forget about the how of it, if the misses are consistently high and to the right maybe it's the hyoid or as you said a ligament/bruise etc. either way it sounds like you are doing your best and taking great care of a guy who got a rough start. Keep up the good work, and hopefully in time your guy will be right as rain!! good luck, may his recovery be full and speedy!

Definitely a reasonable assumption so worth looking into.
He has had a steady calcium intake his whole life so I don't think it is a skeletal issue but could be a muscular thing as you mentioned.

At some point I'm going to have the little guy X-rayed so I would be most grateful if someone could explain the best way to do this. I really hope a general anesthetic is not necessary as this is a deal breaker for me (remember I don't have any Herp Vets that I can go to, just the usual dogs and cats Vets.)