Anyone heard or seen this before????????

[chamel1]

Today I took my cham out of his cage and when he was crawling around i noticed he was not grabbing with his front hands the one is better then the other but not normal.. Instead of how they reach for things he almost drags his wrist like it is limp. Soon as i noticed this i put him back in his cage so i didnt hurt him more. I watched him for a while in his cage and both hands/wrists are the same way. He can hold on to things once he gets a hold of them but he is having a hard time moving this wrist to grab something. I have been researching MBD and from the stuff I have read this doesnt look like that because it is not in between the elbow and wrist. I feed them every other day and always spray the crickets with a food spray- Calcium Supplement one you get from petco it says it prevents MBD. Can anyone shed some light on this issue wether you may have seen or heard of it before. I will leave him alone and monitor his eatting a drinking to see if he is effected. Any help or advise. Thanks

 

[Lancecham]

Pictures would help tremendously.

 

[Chameleonboy]

Please fill this out so we can better assist you. Could he have fallen by any chance?

-Clemonde

Cage Info:

* Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
* Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
* Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
* Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
* Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
* Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
* Location - Where are you geographically located?


Chameleon Info:

* Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
* Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
* Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
* Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
* Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
* Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
* History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.
* Current Problem - The current problem that you are concerned about.


Pictures are helpful

 

[Lovereps]

All of us here love chams and want to help...

that's why Chameleonboy posted the "How to ask for Help Form" in his post. (That's the long list of questions.)
If those questions are all answered, perhaps someone will see something missing or incorrect in your care practices and can help you by letting you know.
Chameleons instinctively do a spectacular job of hiding their illnesses or disablilities so that they don't get eaten. (They don't know there's no need to do this in captivity.)
When you notice something's wrong, then you need to act without hesitation.
A weak grip is certainly a sign of illness, if not the result of an injury.
Any advice anyone here can give, while helpful, can't substitute for an examination by a competent vet. (None us us likes to spend money on a vet or anything else, if we don't have to.)
FWIW, a weak grip actually IS a symptom of MBD---though it can be caused by other illnesses as well.
Oversupplementation with calcium causes problems, as it interferes with absorbtion of other minerals--causing nutritional deficiencies/illness.
Just because MBD can include deformities/fractures between the elbow and wrist, the absence of these does not necessarily mean that he doesn't have MBD.
While the calcium spray you use claims it can cure MBD, it seems to me to be a strange claim. As far as I can tell, there is no vitamin D3 in that solution. Perhaps I'm mistaken and there is D3 in it, but D3 should not be used at every feeding either, as it's then an overdose.
D3 is necessary for reptiles' bodies to be able to use the calcium they are given--but too much D3 supplementation is harmful, too.
It appears that the manufacturer of that product is assuming that every reptile has adequate D3 intake or enough exposure to UVB light.
Although you may be using a Reptisun 5.0 bulb, if it has been used for more than 6 months, its UVB output has most likely seriously diminished.
OR you have a Reptisun 5.0 bulb, but your cham can't get at least within the required minimum of 12 inches of the bulb.
Too much of any supplement is often as bad as, sometimes worse, than too little of it.
If the only insect that your chams eat are crickets--that's not so good. Crickets should be "gutloaded" in order to provide adequate nutrition.
Variety in their diet is good for all animals. Superworms,Butterworms,Phoenix worms,Dubias,Silkworms, Mantids, etc. add variety and different nutrients to the diet.
Calcium without D3 , calcium with D3 and a good vitamin supplement are generally advised as cham supplements.
The age and type of chameleon AND whether or not they regularly are exposed to natural sunlight are factors in how often and with what they should be supplemented. (An outdoor cham may not need a D3 supplement.)
I'm not a vet and don't claim to have an abundance of answers or expertise but I can and do read alot, and inadequate nutrition, dehydration and too little UVB are very common problems with chameleons.Time and time again, I have read that these are the most common culprits in cham health problems.
Advice?
Take him to a good vet who is knowledgeable in reptile care and also examine your husbandry to see if that has been the cause.
Someone here may know of a good reptile vet in your area.

 

[kinyonga]

IMHO you need to get this chameleon to a vet ASAP....then post specific information about your husbandry and correct whatever is wrong with it.
Posting pictures might help too.

 

[chamel1]

The cage that he is in is 2'x2'x1' We are using a regular 40 watt light for basking, a Zoo Med 5.0 UVB light. Here are also some pictures and I do now see where it could be MDB before i did not see the (fracture) or breaks on both legs right below the elbow. He is still eatting not as much as normal because he does still have a few left over. I misted him this morning and he started drinking so all is well there. Please look at the pics and let me know what you think and any recommendations am I giving him to much calcium or do I need more supplments? I dont see anything about D3 in this spray so I can go pick some of that up today. Our cham that is sick is 10 1/2 months we have two others that are in good health and the female is 2 just laid a clutch of 67 eggs, our other male is 2/12. I do open the blinds in the room everyday but the light does not shine dirrectly on them. We may go get a new light today maybe his is not giving him enough uvb rays.

 

[Julirs]

I seriously doubt that the spray you are using is a sufficient supplement. Additionally, how old is your UVB bulb? Is there glass or plastic between the UVB bulb and the cage? UVB does not pass through glass or plastic.

 

[chamel1]

I am not sure how old the buld is we got it from our breeder so we our selfs have had it since June. That is why we were talking about getting a new one since we dont know if it is bad or not. There is no plastic or glass inbetween the light and the cage just the wire mesh that the cage is made of.

 

[Lovereps]

Only unfiltered sunlight enables vitamin D3 production, so any sunlight that shines through your windows does nothing. (It's the reason why we don't get sunburn sitting in a glass sunroom or in our cars--as long as the windows are up.)
Fine mesh screening, like insect screening, reduces the amount of UVB by about 1/3 but I would think that the twice monthly D3 supplement would make up for that.
Vitamin D3 not only enables the body to use the calcium but it also aids in nerve and muscle function.
In the USA, virtually all milk is fortified with vitamin D to ensure that the calcium in it is usable by the body. That's why you don't hear about rickets anymore--because it has been largely prevented by the addition of vitamin D to milk.

The ingredients of the Zilla spray are:
Water, calcium gluconate, calcium carbonate, calcium chloride, potassium sorbate, sodium benzoate, xanthan gum

I'm no chemist, but there's no D3 there so far as I can determine.
What I also don't like is the fact that Zilla's own website doesn't list the ingredients, nor the amount of calcium that the spray contains.
2 of the 7 ingredients are preservatives and the last one is a thickener.

Many folks here use Rep-Cal Calcium without D3 for most dustings.
They use Rep-Cal with D3 a couple of times per month.
Herptivite (a vitamin supplement) is also used twice monthly.

Petco doesn't carry Rep Cal or Herptivite, but at least one of the forum sponsors carries both:
http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog/reptile-supplies/vitamins-medicines-and-cage-cleaners/-/rep-cal-calcium-and-herptivite-combo-special/
AND
http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog...d-cage-cleaners/-/rep-cal-calcium-without-d3/
They have the Reptisun 5.0 bulbs also, for less than 1/2 of what stores near me charge I don't know if this is the length you use but they have many different sizes:

http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog...por-bulbs/-/zoo-med-18-repti-sun-50-uvb-bulb/


"Gutloading" crickets with leafy greens and fruits is recommended both because they are often starved at the store (making them nutrient deficient) and because it boosts their nutritional value for your chameleon.
Better food and proper care = healthier cham

These forums are an excellent source of information and I hope you'll stick around and read lots of posts.

 

[chamel1]

Hey Lovereps i wanted to ask you what is the difference between hertivite and reptivite if any and why is one better then the other? Also I just ordered Retaid it came highly recommended by the breeder who we got our chams from and she knows what she is doing I do know if is all herbs so there is no calcium in it but what do you think or know about the product? It sounds like a all round good product to help the chams not get any parasites and other things to keep their immune systems up. There is a big reptile show next weekend and so we are going to see what we can pick up there. We will go and get better supplements for the chams and get them on that right away.

 

[Lovereps]

The difference is one that is often debated as to how significant it is:
Reptivite has "pre-formed" vitamin A definitely usable, but possible to overdose the chams with
Herptivite has beta-carotene, which may or may not (that's the debated part)
be converted into vitamin A by chameleons
Vitamin A is essential to chameleons' health.
Vitamin A oversupplementation is bad and Vitamin A deficiency is bad
Here's a link if you want to see just how much debate takes place on this:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/vitamin-scares-me-12395/

This is one of the reasons that you should gut-load your feeder insects. It is known that crickets do convert beta-carotene into the usable form of vitamin A.
In the wild chameleons are believed to eat approximately 50 different types of insects--which obviously don't all eat the same things.

That's why chams don't become vitamin or mineral deficient in nature---variety of insects and well-nourished insects---which is why it's best to feed a variety of insects.
Some are more nourishing to chams than others--some are too fatty to be used regularly.
While 50 different insects is beyond all but the most fanatically devoted cham owners, it's easy to provide at least 5 or 6 different types.

At the very least, since your cham is already showing health problems, it would be wisest to spend a few extra bucks now and get some calcium with D3 and a good multivitamin instead of waiting for the reptile show.

Chameleons hide their problems for as long as they are able--so they don't get eaten, in the wild.
When chams have a noticable problem it's time to act without hesitation.
I say this with compassion for your cham and for you, as it can be heartbreaking to lose a pet.
If you let us know what area you are in, someone may be able to recommend a competent reptile vet.
An exam by a good reptile vet is money well-spent and I would surmise that it could cost less than a "replacement" cham.
There will then be no need to speculate as to the exact cause of your cham's problem and, should we be right and the cause is found to be MBD, the vet can administer a calcium injection which will much more rapidly stop the progress of MBD and start the healing process.
Even if you don't want to take your cham to a vet, now (though you know that Kinyonga and I have already mentioned that it would be best), it's good to know of one.

So far, I haven't read anything negative about Reptaid and it sounds like a good product.
I haven't used it for my chams, yet--but I am a recent returnee to cham keeping, after a couple of decades away from them (though not from other reptiles).

Whatever things you decide to do, I hope that you will let me know how things turn out and I wish you the very best with your chams.

 

[Rogerd]

Weak front wrist joints

Hey Chamel 1,
I read about your problem and it seems strange, but I have a Veiled Cham and just this week I noticed that his left front wrist is rather weak. This seems like the problem yoy seeing. Hope we can find an answer.
Rogerd

 

[justjumpit621]

Old post, sorry...

 

[Carlton]

Also I just ordered Retaid it came highly recommended by the breeder who we got our chams from and she knows what she is doing I do know if is all herbs so there is no calcium in it but what do you think or know about the product? It sounds like a all round good product to help the chams not get any parasites and other things to keep their immune systems up.

Reptaid isn't something you would use on a regular basis. It is sort of a boost for a stressed or sick animal that isn't feeding or drinking normally. It won't do anything about parasites...chams eat insects and insects have parasites naturally. As long as the cham's parasite load isn't sky high they often live in balance with them without problems. When the cham has other health problems the parasite load can balloon and cause problems. A fecal analysis by the vet can give you an idea what your chams have. I doubt this is a parasite problem. Get the better supplements, check your dusting schedule (you can overdo it), improve your gutloading, change the lighting, and your cham may heal itself. Also, take a good hard look at your cham's overall posture. A soft or bent casque and jaws can also be signs of deficiencies.