My new wild-caught veiled...he shows self-awareness via the mirror test
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Goose502
Chameleon Enthusiast
Whoa, this has been a great read. Bonding, I believe is a misunderstood phenomenon. I've kept a wide variety of reptiles over the years and I don't think bonding best explains the relationship. Yes, they recognize their keepers, they are the source of food, or possibly other good things (I like to take my pets outside when possible), but self recognition, who knows, you can't ask them. The need to bond is very human, and many keepers may feel they have a "bond" with they're reptiles. I don't agree, but I think it's great someone cares enough to have created that opinion in their head. As far as this very loose experiment involving the mirrors, though it's admirable for any keeper to try and recreate and prove or disprove the results, remember, a very large percentage of all scientific studies turn out to have too many variables, and are proven useless. Personally, I'm in the medical field, and I have rarely come across a study that covers all the variables, and ends up positively changing the way I care for my patients. Again, great read, but be respectful with commenting, as I tell my coworkers, you can't well convey context or neuonce in a text message, or in a forum apparently.
Alphakenc stumble in as a Wolverine... @cyberlocc I got ur pm.....here is my personal experience...some of my chams will react when they see a mirror with their own reflection ,all puff up n ready to attack,and some of other cham will not give any cat's bum with the mirror ....so each chams has their own personality to interact with their owner in the particular time....
I believe the word "Bonding" can be misused......"Taming" is more suitable word since each owner can spend different amount of the time with their own chameleons,and the interaction in between u and ur cham can easily be misguided by ur own emotions and thoughts in that particular time...
Just put out an example....a long long time ago....alphakenc I thought about potty training my chameleons and I thought they were obeying my commands since I FOUND THEIR POOPS ALWAYS IN THE SAME SPOT MOST OF THE TIME....and no one I mean NO ONE can ever explain to me why is this happen since we are not the chameleons,we are ONLY thinking as a HUMAN BEING and Fortunately every human beings are entitled to have their OWN opinions and that goes with my fellow chameleon forums members,have a great day
I believe the word "Bonding" can be misused......"Taming" is more suitable word since each owner can spend different amount of the time with their own chameleons,and the interaction in between u and ur cham can easily be misguided by ur own emotions and thoughts in that particular time...
Just put out an example....a long long time ago....alphakenc I thought about potty training my chameleons and I thought they were obeying my commands since I FOUND THEIR POOPS ALWAYS IN THE SAME SPOT MOST OF THE TIME....and no one I mean NO ONE can ever explain to me why is this happen since we are not the chameleons,we are ONLY thinking as a HUMAN BEING and Fortunately every human beings are entitled to have their OWN opinions and that goes with my fellow chameleon forums members,have a great day
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Congrats @cyberlocc U are an Avid member now
jannb
Chameleon Enthusiast
The definition of bonding.
Full Definition of bonding. 1 : the formation of a close relationship (as between a mother and child or between a person and an animal) especially through frequent or constant association.
My chameleons and I spend time together everyday. They go on walks with me and my husband, they celebrate holidays with us, they run errands with us, they hang out in the kitchen with me while I cook and clean, they go for rides, before we moved closer to their vet we went on many long trips, stayed in hotels and ate out at restaurants. That's bonding. They are a big part of our family.
Full Definition of bonding. 1 : the formation of a close relationship (as between a mother and child or between a person and an animal) especially through frequent or constant association.
My chameleons and I spend time together everyday. They go on walks with me and my husband, they celebrate holidays with us, they run errands with us, they hang out in the kitchen with me while I cook and clean, they go for rides, before we moved closer to their vet we went on many long trips, stayed in hotels and ate out at restaurants. That's bonding. They are a big part of our family.
Those are beautiful pictures u have,and I used to use "bonding " word with my chams too,until I got into a very interesting debate with some forum members,so now I use the word "taming"
jannb
Chameleon Enthusiast
Those are beautiful pictures u have,and I used to use "bonding " word with my chams too,until I got into a very interesting debate with some forum members,so now I use the word "taming"
I totally understand. There's some really closed minded keepers here but I am use to talking with vets and very experienced keepers. BTW Thanks for the nice compliment on the photos. Most are just cell phone pictures. I have tons more if anyone needs further proof that there's bonding going on.
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U are more than welcome and I cant even tell those pics are from the cell phone,I like those circular branches in ur car ,its like the chameleons "nest"
@cyberlocc @jajeanpierre You guys are ridiculous, and are both in complete denial...sorry I had to be the one to put you both in your place on this forum. I truly feel sorry for all your chameleons, and your kids (if you have any) as well. By reading through some of yall's post I can see the same arguments and ludicrous opinions mentioned repeatedly. Get off your high horses and quit spreading your nonsensical beliefs. You're both probably very religious (not that there is anything wrong with that, my mom is very religious and one of the smartest, most sensible person I have ever met), but your the type of people who can't think or speak for yourself, try to spread you beliefs and opinions onto others as if its the truth because you think you know everything, you think your better than everyone else who doesn't agree with you and you think your gods gift to earth. Ya'll rarely if ever have any means to back up your slander then use each other to try to gang against others with false accusation, while putting words in their mouth, and then repetitively use the only big word ya'll know "anthropomorphing" in a pathetic attempt to sound intellectual.
You're the parents who won't let their kids play at the play ground because your scared of them getting hurt--then, just like your chameleons, they're going to grow up sheltered, with no experiences of the real world and unable to take care of themselves, just like your isolated and asocial chameleons. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347213005186
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You're the parents who won't let their kids play at the play ground because your scared of them getting hurt--then, just like your chameleons, they're going to grow up sheltered, with no experiences of the real world and unable to take care of themselves, just like your isolated and asocial chameleons. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347213005186
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oneillchameleons
Established Member
You have been a member since yesterday, you have no idea who these people are, and you have the gall to write something like this. There's no room on these forums, or this planet for that matter, for people like you. Start your own forum if you want to rant like a maniac.
I completely agree with you. I do like to check out my guys when they are on top of my head in the mirror, but anytime I notice a hint of stress in any situation I resolve it. I love my chameleons as well, and my favorite one (my female Oustalet) is the most independent of them all, so while she doesn't hang out with me, we still have a special bond. She will only allow me to pick her up and handle her, and when she got an eye infection she made it apparent to me something was wrong and even came to me when it was time to giver her eye drops and antibiotics. Again, its a long stretch to say that they are self-aware, but I have never seen any other chameleon look at a mirror and use it like Zeus does...it could just be his unique personality, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility especially after seeing how Zeus acts in front of a mirror. Its good to hear your chameleons are happy and doing well, it sounds like your a great owner! It depresses me when I have to leave them cooped up in their cage for too long because I know how much they love being out of their cage and feeling like they are free, and I'll do anything I can to make them happy!
Thanks for that, and good advice. It would be nice to be welcomed to a new forum instead of ridiculed and dismissed when I try to start a topic that is interesting and meaningful to me.
Virgil1972
Avid Member
I don't think they are talking about the topic you brought up, they are talking about how you are talking to people. Insulting people and making assumptions.
Great Pics, and awesome, I feel the same, and love the relationship my chameleons and I share (even my female Oustalet who is very independent!). Your large male veil, small female, and male panther have a striking resemblance to 3 of my babies!
I got that, hence why I said good advice...because it is. But they have no room coming to the thread I posted that, as a fellow chameleon enthusiast, am genuinely curious about and wanted to hear other opinions, then insulting me, making assumptions, and putting words in my mouth. Even after I explained multiple times that I started this thread for positive criticism and opinions they continued. Edit
Alphakenc I said everybody should jus take a chill pill,since we all different human being,no one is right n no one is wrong since all the situation can be very different ,I been thru so many "Drama" here n I get very heated sometimes,but what are we trying to proof??? Are we going to go to heaven?or are we going to strike a lotto? Or better yet,are we going to live forever ??since we are totally different individuals,no one is going to think the same as u or me,people are different,the whole world are different,if people wants to think what they want so be it,as long u know what is ur priority then u shouldn't be worry ,think positive n be postive for ur own,no one is going to take away from u unless u let them to,its my first day back,and I like to stay happy here!!!
Kclarke02
Avid Member
This forum is meant to be for open discussion and general advice based on experience, hence forum. Everyone is different in how they raise their animals, even kids for that matter. One thing I've learned here is no one Cham is like another, and therefore I think raising them should be somewhat catered to each individual with the basic needs being met. I've been creepin on this discussion since it started and I can see "both sides". If what you're doing is stressing them out then stop. However I understand you're curiosity and experimental approach. It sounds like you've had experience with these awesome creatures tho and you can recognize the stress signs. I'm new to them myself and love learning about them. As long as you're caring for them and giving them the best possible life in "captivity" then that's all that matters. I've learned so much from those on this forum and would personally hate for someone to have a bad first experience. It's been an extremely helpful site for me. I wish you the best and welcome to the forum! There will always be different opinions and that's why we're all individuals, and human! You know what they say about opinions, ....everyone has one.
Shilohpsu
Member
Thanks for sharing the family photos. My wife and I also take Herbert on trips to petco, to visit the grandparents, to visit our coworkers on random days off. We love that he has a persona of his own among other humans. "How's Herbert doing?" "Any new pictures or Herbert updates?" A kid at petco "wow. What's his name?" I replied Herbert. The kid started smiling and laughing "that's a great name!" People just love him. Thanks for all the family photos again. Also wanted to say that great minds think alike:
