MH -vs- HPS -vs- MV

[Nihil]

Well, beings I don't really like Yahoo, I'll post this here, plus there's a lot of others who could chime in.

Some of you had discussed Mercury Vapor HIDs...and I started wondering why someone would use those. I'm decently knowledgable in hydroponics/indoor growing, and the typical lights are HPS and MH, so I started thinkin about things and searched briefly on this stuff.

MVs emit a lot of UVB...found that out when I searched on it.

I found this: http://www.russiantortoise.org/uvb.htm

Then I read some other stuff and the actual requirements in UVB for reptiles isn't that much, and I'd assume with the natural environment of Chameleons, it's less than a lot of other reptiles...such as Desert Iguanas.

So I'd say there wouldn't be much benefit in using one...for the average person with the average enclosure...Now, outdoor or free roam (Really Large) enclosures would probably benefit from the high output of UVB.

After checking out the information though, I started wondering what effects the other lights might have on reptiles, more specifically our Mellers.

With plants, as the days shorten, and the earths axis shifts, temperatures fall, yada yada, the plants slowly stop photosynthesis and stop producing clorophyl, loosing their green color and exhibiting reds and yellows. A lot of this is due to the light change, shorter days vs. longer days, and light wavelengths being emitted.

I started wondering what effects HPS, MH and MV would have on our animals. When people are in an environment where it's overcast, cloudy, rainy, we get more depressed (Trust me, I live in Oregon ) When it's bright and sunny out, we're happy. When in a work place that's dim, it's not as comfortable as a well lit room.

I found this:

Blacklights are a strong source of UVA. It has been demonstrated that UVA can influence agonistic, reproductive, and signaling behaviors in some species of lizards (Gehrmann, 1994A) as well as inhibit growth in female panther chameleons, Chamaeleo pardalis (Ferguson, et al., 1996)

Which made me think even more so, that I might be right, or on to something here. What if, depending on the light being emitted by the sun (time of year) our chameleons display differently, in which other chams (Mellers more specific) can tell each other apart differently, or know it's time to mate? Kinda like birds know when it's spring.

Maybe the few that breed in captivity are more of trial and error thing, kinda like "Hey, get outta here" *Flaps lobes* then the other "No way, you get outta here" *Flaps lobes a bit differently* then...the other "Oh myyyyy, I didn't know you were a she How you doin?" lol who knows...just a thought.

So...what I was thinkin, they've got 50w MH bulbs and HPS bulbs at Home Depot, I don't know what the ballast requirements are for them though, but make a small wattage lighting system....or big, if you've got a big enclosure, but, somehow Devise a dimming mechanism that can shift the lights to replicate the seasons. Maybe something will change and we'll have more success with them.

Just a side note, when growing indoors, common is MH for growth, then HPS for bloom/fruiting/budding. When used the opposite way, HPS during growth, plants stretch for the light more, grow quicker but not as dense, and MH for fruiting, not as much fruits and smaller.

So I'm sure, regardless, these small differences would have some effect on any life form in captivity.

Anyway.....thanks for your time...this was quite a ramble.

 

[stephen]

M.h.

I have used higher wattage M.H. and it was no problem getting a ballast from a hydroponics, but i have not seen one for a 50 or 100 watts. Any ideas?

 

[Nihil]

I have used higher wattage M.H. and it was no problem getting a ballast from a hydroponics, but i have not seen one for a 50 or 100 watts. Any ideas?

Yeah, typical HIDs are 400w and up because people use'em in whole rooms...But if you go to home depot or lowes, with the lights, they've got lower wattage HIDs, the best I can think of, is if you go look at their "security lights" like the MVs that are mounted outside peoples garages n what not, they take a 70w or 100w, so the only thing I can come up with is, buy one of those fixtures, take it apart and see what ballast it is, then buy the ballasts and make your own....but that's a lot of money I don't have haha.

If you look online, you can find out what those smaller HIDs take for ballasts, but Home Depot/lowes don't care'em....or I haven't seen'em anyway

 

[stephen]

M.V.s

Thanx Chris. The M.V.s that i use are self ballasted.

 

[studiocham]

Then I read some other stuff and the actual requirements in UVB for reptiles isn't that much, and I'd assume with the natural environment of Chameleons, it's less than a lot of other reptiles...such as Desert Iguanas.

This link indicates chams require 15-33uW/cm²

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/whatreptilesneed.htm

It would be easy to overdo with a high-output bulb. I have 1 year old 10.0s that are still within that range, as of a meter read last week!

After checking out the information though, I started wondering what effects the other lights might have on reptiles, more specifically our Mellers...

... A lot of this is due to the light change, shorter days vs. longer days, and light wavelengths being emitted...

... What if, depending on the light being emitted by the sun (time of year) our chameleons display differently, in which other chams (Mellers more specific) can tell each other apart differently, or know it's time to mate? Kinda like birds know when it's spring...

Maybe the few that breed in captivity are more of trial and error thing, kinda like "Hey, get outta here" *Flaps lobes* then the other "No way, you get outta here" *Flaps lobes a bit differently* then...the other "Oh myyyyy, I didn't know you were a she How you doin?" lol who knows...just a thought.

Light must play some part, but it's certainly not the only cue. I keep chams in a room with large windows, which get NE exposure. Interestingly enough, breeding activity starts at the time of year when they are housed indoors. They have been under artificial lighting for months when they get revved up. There can be snow outside, the light coming from the windows completely wintery, but the melleri don't care. By the time of year when the windows get dramatic sunshine, the melleri have already been coloring up, courting, and hooting at each other for months. The males kept in cages that are not near the windows will color up, indicating that stimuli other than direct outdoor light are at work.

Melleri sexing melleri: I suspect that, like birds, chams see UV markers on each other. This may be where seasonal light is coming into play. This year's pair do most of their courting at the 150w UVA basking site. Are they seeing some appealing UV marking on each other, just warmed up by the incandescent's heat, or just feeling happy from the UVA? Active intraspecific signals play a big part in gender reveal. The best bet for how melleri get the message to prospective mates is their long-distance calling, infrasonics. Maybe the males' "songs" start females' ovulation, as in some birds?

IME, LTC females start egg production by February (N. America), while the males may have started testing them earlier. This winter, my 3 year old female started showing receptive color before December 3rd, and her mate was already courting. All Northern Hemisphere melleri are not on the same schedule, though. I wonder if it has to do with the frequency of storms (barometric pressure) here, or just husbandry differences?

The pairs I have had bred repeatedly over months, cohabbed so they had the opportunity to choose when, and yielded one clutch per year (we moved a lot, which had some bearing on the fertility). I tend to think the success has been limited not by light, but other management differences causing stress (like the aforementioned moves, toxicosis, trying to breed them like other species with brief visual contact per clutch, or trying to breed melleri that just plain don't like each other). There's a chart on the MD Growth page that clearly indicates the stress of a move in terms of sudden and extreme weight loss.

In summary, the lack of widespread success is not likely to be about seasonal light denied or supplied, since they can be active all over the calendar; breeding failure is the result of stresses or illnesses in their lives.