Can veiled chameleons eat fish?

[Pure]

It might. Movement plays a big part in a chams (most lizards) prey recognition.
Refraction would cause some difficulty with striking at fish aswell I imagine, despite binocular vision.(just for the record)

I was reading this and wondering if anyone would bring this up. I'm kinda surprised the "experts" didn't catch this. It's a simple fact, the refraction of light going into the water will prevent the cham from ever hitting it's target. If it did get lucky enough to hit one. The sticky mucus on the tongue wouldn't be very effective in water.

As for the idea of the tank being a good way to handle the waste from the cham..You better have damn good filtration. I'm talking something on pond levels. The fecal matter plus the insects that will end up drowning will be very taxing on regular filtration.

 

[eisentrauti]

Just read this carefully and forget this idea:

Basic physics would suggest that if the chameleon were to take a shot at fish in the water, the change in density between air and water would cause the tongue to very suddenly stop or redirect in another direction. This is similar to a chameleon shooting at a cricket on the other side of a plate of glass. They don't see the obstacle and the abrupt and unanticipated stop could cause damage to the tongue.

Chris

 

[Chameleon Company]

Lol .....

I'm kinda surprised the "experts" didn't catch this. It's a simple fact, the refraction of light going into the water will prevent the cham from ever hitting it's target.

I think most of the "experts" realize that chameleons discriminate just fine as to their prey items in a natural setting. Glass as a barrier is not a natural occurance, while the cricket on the other side of it is a readily accepted food, and can be an issue. All this other hocus-pocus about fishing chameleons is based on varying degrees of assumptions that the chameleon is going to react to the movement of a minnow, then identify it as food, then not properly calculate the angle, and then damage its tongue ...

Frankly, I'd be more worried about a piece of glass

The bio-filtration of a stocked 150 gallon tank could easily handle the waste from a chameleon and some dead bugs, btw.

 

[Chris Anderson]

I was reading this and wondering if anyone would bring this up. I'm kinda surprised the "experts" didn't catch this. It's a simple fact, the refraction of light going into the water will prevent the cham from ever hitting it's target.

The light refraction issue is relevant only to the chameleon's ability to accurately aim at the fish, not to the safety of this type of setup. As I mentioned, the damage to the tongue from impacting the water is a safety issue with this type of setup, in addition to limiting the chameleon's ability to feed on the fish before an issue with light refraction would even come to play.

If it did get lucky enough to hit one. The sticky mucus on the tongue wouldn't be very effective in water.

Prey prehension in chameleons is done through a combination of wet adhesion (sticky mucus), mechanical grasping and suction. More then two thirds of the force involved in prey prehension is from suction and less then 10% is from wet adhesion. While the chameleon may still have difficulty grasping a fish, if the tongue was able to contact the fish considering the impact of the tongue on water, there are multiple, more important mechanisms which could be the issue. I tend to think it has more to do with the slippery mucus lining of the fish and the layer of water on the fish then the mucus on the tongue itself.

Chris

 

[Pure]

The refraction of the water means you will see the fish in one place but in fact it will be 1 to 2 inches from that point in one direction or the other. This has nothing to do with what angle you are looking at the fish at.

If the tank has a wet dry filter, I agree. Most people with a 150 only have a canister, and if they are informed on what they are doing they might also have an HOB. IMO that would not be enough filtration if this tank is stocked. It's not just the amount of fecal matter you have to worry about. The urates and any and all plant matter that may fall in will add to the ammonia the filtration needs to convert. Add that to the fecal matter and bugs and you are talking about a rather large demand on the filtration. Most fish waste is relatively small in comparison with terrestrial animals. Fish are extremely efficient at converting their food to energy. Very little is wasted.

Edit: Chris, my first part of this post was in response to Jim. You posted wile I was typing.

Prey prehension in chameleons is done through a combination of wet adhesion (sticky mucus), mechanical grasping and suction. More then two thirds of the force involved in prey prehension is from suction and less then 10% is from wet adhesion. While the chameleon may still have difficulty grasping a fish, if the tongue was able to contact the fish considering the impact of the tongue on water, there are multiple, more important mechanisms which could be the issue. I tend to think it has more to do with the slippery mucus lining of the fish and the layer of water on the fish then the mucus on the tongue itself.

Indeed, I also didn't know the ratio of what part of the tongue does how much grasping. Thanks for that bit of information. And yes the slimecoat would also be an issue. I also was not downplaying the risk to the tongue. Just pointing out that it's not likely that the Cham would be able to hit it's target.

 

[jojackson]

The light refraction issue is relevant only to the chameleon's ability to accurately aim at the fish, not to the safety of this type of setup.

Indeed. I mentioned it only in passing.

I had already said..

Aborial and insectivorous species would likely never consume fish, chameleons in particular. They dont have the agilty, nor the apparatus to catch fish, evolution knows best.

I think we're well past the fish eating issue. The whole idea is poorly thought and based primarily on the keepers sense of asthetics rather than with husbandry in mind.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Indeed, I also didn't know the ratio of what part of the tongue does how much grasping. Thanks for that bit of information. And yes the slimecoat would also be an issue. I also was not downplaying the risk to the tongue. Just pointing out that it's not likely that the Cham would be able to hit it's target.

If you are interested in more info on those prey prehension mechanisms, check out this article: http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/content/abstract/203/21/3255 On the right, you can download the pdf.

Chris

 

[brandonppr]

It might. Movement plays a big part in a chams (most lizards) prey recognition.
Refraction would cause some difficulty with striking at fish aswell I imagine, despite binocular vision.(just for the record)

Okay, I will not let her eat fish.
If I see this as a problem it can be solved by:
a.safe/non toxic floating plants.
b.other floating objects to cover the surface of the water.

 

[brandonppr]

As for the idea of the tank being a good way to handle the waste from the cham..You better have damn good filtration. I'm talking something on pond levels. The fecal matter plus the insects that will end up drowning will be very taxing on regular filtration.

defintly. It will be set up like my iguana as far as that goes. 50 gallons get autochanged every day and waste is removed thru a valve that back washes the filter into a waste drain. It has a much higher bioload than this tank will ever have and water perimeters stay perfect.

 

[Sancho]

I know why this question was asked! There is a youtube video of a cham eatting a fish. I saw it awhile ago but ignored it cause if you seen the owners other videos you would know he doesn't know much about chams.

 

[brandonppr]

I think we're well past the fish eating issue. The whole idea is poorly thought and based primarily on the keepers sense of asthetics rather than with husbandry in mind.

Whoa! I never said I didn't want my cham to be safe. You don't have to act like that. You have been downing me in every post. If I only cared about asthetics, I would have never asked a question in the first place. I have gottem some good info so far. No one said a set up could not be astheticly pleasing. If there is a problem anyone sees with this setup, I am happy to listen and try to get around that issue. If I have an issue that I can not get around then I will not do this setup, but if I can solve an issues with this setup then why can I not do it?

 

[brandonppr]

I know why this question was asked! There is a youtube video of a cham eatting a fish. I saw it awhile ago but ignored it cause if you seen the owners other videos you would know he doesn't know much about chams.

Never seen the vid.

I have determined that mine will not eat fish.

 

[brandonppr]

My goal with this setup is:
a. add humidity too much perhaps. Respitory issues are likely. How will you lower humidity at night when temps drop?
b. be able to mist her without molding the substrate Substrate is not required anyway
c. The "cage" would be virtually clean all the time Bacteria is difficult to see. It wont be 'virtual' bacteria either. You would still need to clean it properly.
d. I think it will look nice For you or the lizard?
e. she would have a large area and not be closed in It will eventually escape or drown. Ways out of the water are no garantee. Insects will fall in the water and be eaten by fish, if the cham decides to follow the insects, see above, especially in moving water. Even turtles can drown.

a. Not a problem on my iguana setup. Remember this is a open "cage" not an inclosure. IF that were to be a problem it could be solved with a fan, but I don't see that as a problem at all though.
c. It defintly still be cleaned, but I think it will require less mantinance and be cleaner than most setups.
d. IMO this is not some radical setup where the cham would feel out of place. It is still a natural looking setup.
e. There will be plenty of ways out of the water. I don't see this being a problem. I will closely observe the cham for a while after entering this setup. I work from home and am home most always anyway. My cham has never escaped from the current setup.

This is not my first pet by any means. Also not my first reptile. IMO I take good care of my pets and are spoiled beyond what most pets get.

 

[brandonppr]

BTW the big fish is mostly a vegitarian. It eats seed, fruit, plants. It will only eat fish if all other things are taken away.

why not show equal concern for the correct diet for your lizard?

I do. That is one reason for asking the question in the first place.

With the Pacu most people can not even keep them with other fish because they eat all of them. I can keep them with fish that are 1/8" and he does not even think about eating any of them. I have not seen one other person that has been able to do that with theres. My only concern with the fish is the tank size. Something that I will be working on this spring. He will be getting a 2500 gallon tank as opposed to the 150 he is in now. Something that most of these fish never get because most people buy them from petsmart and do no research and put them into a 10 gallon tank and then 3 months later they have outgrown it and no pet store will take them as a trade so they just get killed or put into local waters neither of which is a good thing.

 

[brandonppr]

After a little more research I have decided agaist a water fall backdrop and I think a drip wall would be better. Using only RO water. The extra water will go over into the wetdry and overflow it into the drain.

My concern with the waterfall is that while the water is UV treated it still will not be fresh for drinking. I think a RO drip wall will best solve this issue and I will be able to intergrate plants into the wall without them getting washed out by a water fall.

The cham currently has a waterfall as pictured. I clean it out every day, but same issue.

 

[beeze]

Do you think it could fall in and drown?

Yes he could.

 

[jojackson]

Whoa! I never said I didn't want my cham to be safe. You don't have to act like that. You have been downing me in every post. If I only cared about asthetics, I would have never asked a question in the first place. I have gottem some good info so far. No one said a set up could not be astheticly pleasing. If there is a problem anyone sees with this setup, I am happy to listen and try to get around that issue. If I have an issue that I can not get around then I will not do this setup, but if I can solve an issues with this setup then why can I not do it?

I am not 'downing' you, Im downing your ideas based on the needs of your cham v's your need of aesthetics, the two are somewhat incompatible.
It can be aesthetically pleasing but should not become impractical and potentially unhealthy to do so.
If you think you can overcome the issues involved then have at it!

a. Not a problem on my iguana setup. Remember this is a open "cage" not an inclosure.

It wont be an iguana setup, your chameleon is not an iguana. Open cage or not, its still directly over a large volume of moving water. Humidity will be constantly high. A fan will not solve that.

d. IMO this is not some radical setup where the cham would feel out of place. It is still a natural looking setup.

The key there is "IMO". Is it natural for a cham to live over water in consistantly high humidity from which it cannot escape?
How many veilds do?

Its your cham, your experience, have fun, observe, learn.
Good luck

 

[GooglezNvincent]

i have never fed any of my chameleons fish, but i did witness a veiled eat a goldfish. My friend has water dragons and she fed her dragons some gold fish and had one left over so she tossed it in her veileds feeding bowl, once ANYTHING hits the inside of that bowl the veiled comes running from where ever she is. She saw the fish flopping and climbed so she was about 12'' away and shot her tongue and hit the fish but since the fish was slimy the veiled could not get good suction. The veiled then crawled to about 8'' and repeated the process to 4'' and then eventually leaned all the way in the bowl and bit the fish. I ask my friend to watch her chams fecal samples, after 3 fecals and nothing out of the ordianry i guess it wasnt too bad for the chameleon, but i would never suggest it.

 

[brandonppr]

The key there is "IMO". Is it natural for a cham to live over water in consistantly high humidity from which it cannot escape?
How many veilds do?

Sorry, your right. I looked up there natural enviroment and found this. I was really mistaken about what is natural for them.

 

[GooglezNvincent]

awwww are those breeding cages to make WC and have their CB babies? thats the sad part, these WC aren't wild they are prisoners and have to watch their natural environment from a cage ;(