Possible Follicular Stasis

[elizaann2]

Hello All,

I've been working with my vet on my female veiled girl regarding some reproductive issues. Two weeks ago and we got x-rays done and it revealed some little circles in her belly. My vet referred me to another exotic vet in another city who works out of a hospital and has more abilities to perform surgeries (if needed) and keep my girl hospitalized overnight (if needed).

Yesterday this referred vet was able to check out my girl, she did an ultrasound and blood work and determined that she does not have eggs, which is why she hasn't been laying any eggs, but does have follicles. The question is why is she not developing those follicles into eggs. We went over my husbandry at length and she did not note any concerns. In her blood work she noted that her phosphorus and calcium levels were quite off which could be early signs of, if I remember correctly, kidney disease.

Another interesting thing was the ultrasound revealed that she has sand in her digestive system....it was recommended to me to remove the lay bins for now so she does not continue to ingest the sand/dirt mixture.

What was suggested to me was to adjust her light schedule so she only has her lights on for 8 hours each day. The idea is to trick her body that it is winter time and not time to breed and hopefully have her body reabsorb the follicles. We will do another ultrasound in 2 weeks and make a plan from there on next steps if she does not reabsorb the follicles.

The bloodwork, as mentioned, showed levels that were off for phosphorus and calcium, we will check this again on Friday and make a game plan on our findings there. She also sent some blood work out to be checked for any infections, I'm sure I'll hear about those results sometime next week.

Has anyone on here experienced this? Does anyone have any knowledge on what else I can do to help her body reabsorb the follicles? I don't even know what to do about the bloodwork and her levels being off....

I'll fill out my husbandry for her in a few minutes and when I do get copies of all of the medical documents I will share them as well.

 

[Ghostbirb]

I’m not sure but what was the levels on her calcium and phosphorus? Because I got blood work for Nachito when she was receptive and she also had weird phosphorus and calcium levels

 

[elizaann2]

Oh that helps me feel better. This whole time I’ve been prepping myself that she has early signs of kidney failure and is going to die from that.

I honestly don’t remember either level I was trying so hard to process all the info I was getting from the vet and that didn’t stick. I will get her lab work once the labs come back checking for infections and then I’ll share them with you.

 

[elizaann2]

Oh that helps me feel better. This whole time I’ve been prepping myself that she has early signs of kidney failure and is going to die from that.

I honestly don’t remember either level I was trying so hard to process all the info I was getting from the vet and that didn’t stick. I will get her lab work once the labs come back checking for infections and then I’ll share them with you.

I do remember that her calcium was high and phosphorus was low. I don’t remember the exact numbers though.

 

[JacksJill]

Fingers crossed that the shortened day does the trick. Did the vet say anything about cutting back feeding at all?

 

[elizaann2]

Fingers crossed that the shortened day does the trick. Did the vet say anything about cutting back feeding at all?

She said to keep everything the same but I’m debating on maybe lessening her food intake anyways.

This is my regular feeding schedule for her:
Monday
Wednesday
Friday
3-4 small feeders
Saturday treat bug day - 2 wax or supers

Staple feeders are bsfl, bsf, dubia, silkworms, crickets

 

[JacksJill]

The light timing may be enough. Do keep us posted on how she does.

 

[kinyonga]

Your female has never had MBD, has she?
Do you know when she first got her receptive colours this time?
Has she produced eggs before?

(Sorry..I’m being lazy and not reading all your previous posts to find out…because you post so often! I‘m not complaining about that! It’s just a fact!)

 

[elizaann2]

Don’t worry I have all the info easily for you, no need to search through everything I’ve posted in the past. I’m just taking care of a sick kid and I’ll do my husbands review and answer all your questions.

 

[elizaann2]

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care? Female Veiled Chameleon, I purchased her from Petsmart on May 20th 2022, her estimated hatch date (per my vet from her first wellness visit ) is probably sometime in Feb 2022
• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon? Maybe 1-2 times every two weeks due to her climbing out on my arm or hand as I am doing something in her enclosure or feeding her. I let handling her be completely her choice and if so, I keep the sessions very short and I watch her closely for signs of stress
• Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
  • Monday, Wednesday, Friday an assortment of either dubia, silkworms, bsfl, bsf or crickets. Saturday is treat bug day either wax worms or super worms (Mostly wax worms since supers get so big).
  • She gets 3-4 bugs each feeding, its not the same every time, treats are usually 2 bugs.
  • Gut load is frozen cubes of the gut load recommended on here, I make enough for about 3 months worth at a time and store it in my freezer, bugs also get fresh fruits and veggies (on the gut load sheet) on top of the frozen gut load cube. Bugs get fed Monday, Wednesday, Friday and Saturday
• Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with, and what is the schedule? ReptiCal phosphorus free without Vitamin D3 on every feeding. Repashy LoD on the 1st and 15th of every month
• Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long do you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking? She has a fog machine that goes off in 30 minute sessions from 12-6 am every night. I mist her enclosure for 2 minutes, 15 minutes before lights turn on and again after lights are turned off. I install a dripper at 3, if I see her rush to drink I add an extra dripper the next day. I have only seen her drink super rarely, I have seen her drink within the last 2 weeks.
• Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites? Usually white urates and hydrated poops, however the last poop/urate looked a little odd...it had a redish tint to it if that makes sense. I should have taken a photo of it but didnt, I'm going to see what the next one looks like and can share if it looks similar to what I am talking about.
• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions? ExoTerra Screen enclosure, 36x18x36. I turned it into a hybrid enclosure and have corrugated plastic wrapped around 3 sides and have a window insulator kit on the front doors. Service panel and top of the enclosure are left open for the chimney effect.
• Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule? She originally had the dreaded chameleon kit and was only in that for about a month if I remember correctly. The first lights I got her were the ReptiSun T5Ho hood and uvb light combo I found on Amazon, it was a 10.0 and was lifted about 10 or so inches off the top of the enclosure. I labeled each hood with the date I needed to replace the UVB and replaced it 5 months instead of the recommended 6. She had this set up recently when I got a Solarmeter 6.5, when I checked her lights I found she was only getting 1.0 at the top branches, even with new UVB lights in the hood (turns out the hood wasn't working correctly) Unfortunately I don't know how long the hood worked or didn't work. I obviously replaced the hood and the UVB light that day and now check her UVB levels once a month. I do worry that maybe this is a cause of her not being able to form eggs correctly.
• Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps? She gets an ambient temp of 72-76, her basking light does not get hotter than 80. Night temps are in the low 60s
• Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity? During the day its anywhere between 40-50%, with it being colder and all the heaters are running we are running closer to the 40s. At night her humidity level is in the high 90s with her fog machine and misting.
• Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind? All live plants, all safe ones recommended on either the document we use on this site or has been said to be safe from Petr Necas's website. Polkadot plant, pothos, money tree, the red vein thing and there is another one I can't remember the name of - if its super important I'll look the names up.
• Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high-traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? Its on a metal rack I purchased at home depot, the top of her enclosure is at the top of my head (not as tall as my other ones), she is in a room with my Jackson's but they do not see each other and the vent in the room is closed.
• Location - Where are you geographically located? Utah

 

[elizaann2]

Your female has never had MBD, has she?
Do you know when she first got her receptive colours this time?
Has she produced eggs before?

(Sorry..I’m being lazy and not reading all your previous posts to find out…because you post so often! I‘m not complaining about that! It’s just a fact!)

To my knowledge she has never had MBD. She has always had clean bills of health at the vet, she gets yearly wellness checks, regular fecals for parasite checks etc. My vet has never mentioned MBD and I do not see signs of it. I do worry that she may have lower calcium levels due to her UVB hood not working correctly.

I noticed receptive colors the beginning of July

She has successfully had 2 clutches in the past, this would have been her third.

Let me know what other information you may need.

 

[kinyonga]

How many eggs in the clutches? When were the clutches laid?

 

[Beman]

Some will not lay when they have the reduced feeding schedule. A friend of mine does this with all her females they either rarely lay or never lay due to the controlled feedings and extremely controlled basking temps of 78-80.

So I guess what I am saying is that she may be perfectly fine and is just not developing eggs due to controlled conditions and feeding.

 

[elizaann2]

How many eggs in the clutches? When were the clutches laid?

The first clutch I believe was in sept 2022, she had 31 fully calcified eggs

Second clutch was January 28th 2023, with 24 fully calcified eggs.

 

[elizaann2]

Some will not lay when they have the reduced feeding schedule. A friend of mine does this with all her females they either rarely lay or never lay due to the controlled feedings and extremely controlled basking temps of 78-80.

So I guess what I am saying is that she may be perfectly fine and is just not developing eggs due to controlled conditions and feeding.

That would be my goal as well.

Do you know if her girls gain weight when they are receptive? If so, how long until they reabsorb their eggs and return to their normal weight?

 

[Beman]

That would be my goal as well.

Do you know if her girls gain weight when they are receptive? If so, how long until they reabsorb their eggs and return to their normal weight?

I am not sure. I know her girls very rarely lay and are really healthy. One of hers would yearly but it seams like most would have a clutch or two then stop. Which makes sense since while they are growing we have to feed them well so this would trigger a clutch. Once you reduce intake I would expect what you have seen with clutch sizes reducing and then slowing or stopping.

 

[elizaann2]

I am not sure. I know her girls very rarely lay and are really healthy. One of hers would yearly but it seams like most would have a clutch or two then stop. Which makes sense since while they are growing we have to feed them well so this would trigger a clutch. Once you reduce intake I would expect what you have seen with clutch sizes reducing and then slowing or stopping.

Ok I’m hoping that’s what is going on with my girl.

 

[kinyonga]

First of all…I’m not a vet but only give my best opinion from experience, what I’ve learned, etc.

You said…”Another interesting thing was the ultrasound revealed that she has sand in her digestive system....it was recommended to me to remove the lay bins for now so she does not continue to ingest the sand/dirt mixture”…the problem with removing the bin is that she won’t have a place to lay the eggs. It may be that they eat the sand substrate looking for nutrients they need for the egg production…no proof.

You said…”The question is why is she not developing those follicles into eggs. We went over my husbandry at length and she did not note any concerns. In her blood work she noted that her phosphorus and calcium levels were quite off which could be early signs of, if I remember correctly, kidney disease”…there are so many veileds that suffer from follicular stasis and egg binding that there have been several studies trying to solve the problem. They still don’t have the answers. However, years ago I figured out that by controlling the diet (making it smaller) and decreasing the basking temperature to 80F it would, at the least, reduce the size of the clutches and could even completely stop egg production….so no more follicular stasis or dystocia. Veiled females lived to be at least 6 years old or even 7 instead of the 1 to 3 years they were living according to others. I’m not sure why this would indicate kidney disease.

You said…”I do remember that her calcium was high and phosphorus was low. I don’t remember the exact numbers though”…calcium/phos ratio should be 2:1.

You said…”This is my regular feeding schedule for her:
Monday
Wednesday
Friday
3-4 small feeders
Saturday treat bug day - 2 wax or supers
Staple feeders are bsfl, bsf, dubia, silkworms, crickets”…if your insects are truly small, this should be low enough to slow or even stop egg production…IMHO. What’s the basking temperature.

You said…”I noticed receptive colors the beginning of July”…
”The first clutch I believe was in sept 2022, she had 31 fully calcified eggs
Second clutch was January 28th 2023, with 24 fully calcified eggs”…first and second clutches were the right time apart. Timing sounds ok for the next receptive period, more or less…so she should have laid eggs near the beginning of August…I think. It could be that she skipped a clutch and is now working on the next one. I need to go over my math one more time to be sure. Urrgghh! I think my brain is getting old!!

 

[elizaann2]

First of all…I’m not a vet but only give my best opinion from experience, what I’ve learned, etc. No worries at all, I appreciate the experienced keepers input though

You said…”Another interesting thing was the ultrasound revealed that she has sand in her digestive system....it was recommended to me to remove the lay bins for now so she does not continue to ingest the sand/dirt mixture”…the problem with removing the bin is that she won’t have a place to lay the eggs. It may be that they eat the sand substrate looking for nutrients they need for the egg production…no proof. I agree, I felt weird about taking her lay bin out myself because IF those follicles turn into eggs where would she lay them? I'll take it out if others on here too also feel I should remove it but for now I do worry about doing that.

You said…”The question is why is she not developing those follicles into eggs. We went over my husbandry at length and she did not note any concerns. In her blood work she noted that her phosphorus and calcium levels were quite off which could be early signs of, if I remember correctly, kidney disease”…there are so many veileds that suffer from follicular stasis and egg binding that there have been several studies trying to solve the problem. They still don’t have the answers. However, years ago I figured out that by controlling the diet (making it smaller) and decreasing the basking temperature to 80F it would, at the least, reduce the size of the clutches and could even completely stop egg production….so no more follicular stasis or dystocia. Veiled females lived to be at least 6 years old or even 7 instead of the 1 to 3 years they were living according to others. I’m not sure why this would indicate kidney disease. I am not sure either, it is quite possible that I misunderstood her or missed some information she told me. I am worried about her (even though she looks perfectly fine) and because of that I won't process as much info as is passed on to me. I did my best to take notes but the vet was a very fast talker When I see her again on Friday for the check up I have a list of questions I am going to ask her and things I want her to clarify for me again.

You said…”I do remember that her calcium was high and phosphorus was low. I don’t remember the exact numbers though”…calcium/phos ratio should be 2:1. Ok that is good to know, I'm sure I'll get the numbers on Friday at the latest and will share that with you.

You said…”This is my regular feeding schedule for her:
Monday
Wednesday
Friday
3-4 small feeders
Saturday treat bug day - 2 wax or supers
Staple feeders are bsfl, bsf, dubia, silkworms, crickets”…if your insects are truly small, this should be low enough to slow or even stop egg production…IMHO. What’s the basking temperature. Yes that is what I have been doing, smaller feeders. If they are on what I would consider the larger side I may only feed her 2 feeders for example. Like if the crickets are a little bigger she would only get 2. I try not to do that though because I feel like she is disappointed at only two feeders . Her basking temp is strictly 80 degrees, no hotter. Debating on going down to 78 though - what do you think?

You said…”I noticed receptive colors the beginning of July”…
”The first clutch I believe was in sept 2022, she had 31 fully calcified eggs
Second clutch was January 28th 2023, with 24 fully calcified eggs”…first and second clutches were the right time apart. Timing sounds ok for the next receptive period, more or less…so she should have laid eggs near the beginning of August…I think. It could be that she skipped a clutch and is now working on the next one. I need to go over my math one more time to be sure. Urrgghh! I think my brain is getting old!! . Ya that's right, she should have laid in August according to my calculations. So I guess if they lay every 4 months or so she could be working on the 4th clutch...? I just don't know if they are the same follicles from the '3rd clutch' she never laid. Could that be a thing? Haha no worries, I feel that so hard this week......I appreciate your time and knowledge

 

[kinyonga]

You said…”I just don't know if they are the same follicles from the '3rd clutch' she never laid”…I wish I could tell you the answer to that.