Panther Pricing, and the Mandarin Fish

[chequepoint]

I thought i'd offer up something thats been on my mind regarding the concept of $99 chameleons, though I know nothing about and have no beef or dealings with the breeder in question. Instead I've been thinking about this.

The mandarin fish.
This beautiful fish dies in massive quantities every year in the saltwater fish hobby. It is difficult to care for, and despite its small size requires a 100 gallon or so tank that has been established for a year or so to have a shot at survival. BUT it's pretty, easily harvested from the wild, and prices have dropped to about $10-$15. This results in a few things.
1) Everyone who walks into a store ends up buying one, while 90% of those people don't have and aren't willing to invest in the setup necessary to properly care for one.
2) WHEN not If, the animal slowly starves to death and dies over the course of 6 months to a year, being that they only cost $10, the person runs out and buys another, which they will kill again.
3) The low price has stopped any real attempts at research regarding the captive breeding of these animals. Instead they are ripped out of the ocean en mass to meet nearly certain doom.

My point is that the high price of Panthers helps discourage the casual customer from just taking home that pretty animal from the petstore without research. It forces a harsh financial penalty on those who do choose to neglect to follow the best path, and at least makes them think before running out to buy another.

Someone is much more likely to take a $300 animal to the vet vs. a $99 dollar animal. Fact of life.
Profitability also encourages continued research, and responsible breeding.

Obviously the prices of these animals has dipped a little bit to reflect the economy, and I'm not an elitist or wealthy by any means. I'm just concerned that a price war of this kind could be very detrimental to the animals.

 

[ChromaChameleons]

This is an interesting subject.

Unlike the fish analogy, the majority of Panthers are CB and those that are WC are regulated in numbers, to some degree. CITES plays a role also.

The obvious issue is , as chequepoint suggests, that newbs with impulsive motivation , will buy Panthers in greater numbers. This trend will produce ignored and abused Panthers.

But, can $99 Panthers be sustained. I just heard through a friend , that a competing breeder in my area , was stating that I was too expensive. This same breeder was selling 6 week old panthers at half the price I charge for 3+ month olds. Not 2 weeks later, this other breeders associate , posts an ad for Panthers at the same price that I charge. So , again , I would ask ..... Is a $99 price for Panthers sustainable.

We may see this trend pass as quickly as it starts. In the mean time , this trend , IMO, is not good for the industry . It will proliferate opinions , that Chams are too delicate and that they easily die.

Long term, no one benefits!

 

[Rocky]

well the one thing i dont understand with all of this is why are panthers so expensive compared to veileds? It is because they are wanted more.

Correct me if I am wrong, because my experience with breeding is only what I see here, but isn't a veileds husbandry and a panthers husbandry nearly the same? And isn't egg raising for both types the same as well?

I personally think that people charging so much for them is kinda wrong due to the fact that a veiled is only $40 and it more or less takes the same care for both.

Now if I am wrong on this please correct me and my views will more than likely change.

 

[ChromaChameleons]

I think your comparing apples and oranges. Veileds will lay far more eggs than a Panther. They also have a greater survivability rate and can be sold at a younger age.

They are also under a lot of pressure from wholesalers to be made available for as little as $17 wholesale. When that happens , the supply dries up, due to the outrageously low price and then the price slowly creeps back up, as demand pushes the price.

Personally, I think veileds are underpriced as opposed to Panthers being overpriced. When veileds ae so cheap that breeders give up , I think , that confirms the price anomoly.

 

[chequepoint]

Veilds lay substantially more eggs in an average clutch among other things. Sometimes 60+ eggs in a clutch. Most breeders don't worry about bloodlines, etc. A veiled from the Kammers, who actually focus on quality, will cost you $85 plus shipping. Plus they are easier to obtain WC.

I will also say that locally, I usually see Veileds far too young for sale in stores. Looks to me like most wholesalers dump them at about 3 weeks.

 

[Rocky]

ya I am not necessarily panthers are over priced at all. I think the price for them is a decent price compared to all the other animals in the exotic world, but when they are compared to veileds something seems extremely wrong and I would agree with it being veileds being way under priced.

When you see uromastyx and bearded dragons going for $100+ then you can appreciate chameleons being more mainly because they seem more exotic.

I am still very new in this hobby and I enjoy learning.



I would say some breeders drop them at much younger than 3 weeks as well. I saw a baby at pets mart in lubbock texas that couldnt of been bigger than an inch to an 1.5 inches.

 

[KevinA]

Seems pretty odd that consumers want to prices to stay artificially high. I find it funny that someone can post an add up for pretty average animals, slap a cool name and webpage together and charge $300, then you see superior animals selling for less.

Reminds me of a a theory, "people want to be charged". May be it makes your animal more special because you paid $300 instead of $100 to $150.


BTW
Please bring back $4.00 gas so people will drive less

 

[ChromaChameleons]

Ok Kevin:

Please explain how $300 Panthers are artifically priced. Who is artificially controlling that price or any other price ??/ If they weren't worth it, people wouldn't pay for it. Have you ever heard of the free market , supply and demand, marketing ??? They all play a role in the price that people will pay.

This site is supported by sponsers , who pay to advertise their banners. Without them making money , they wouldn't have the money to support this site. And thats just the tip of the iceberg. Lots of overhead and expenses. Space, heat , electricity , cages, lights, feeders, cost of breeders and the labour that a breeder puts in. Cages don't clean themselves and babies don't raise themselves either.

What do you think the profit is on a $300 sale. Its certainly not $299 profit , thats for sure.

I've seen cheaper Panthers for sale. They are younger , have higher mortality rates and create an industry reputation that chams are delicate and die easily. I know this , because I get emails from other breeders customers.

A $175 Panther is not equal to a $99 panther is not equal to a $300 Panther.

Go out and buy a Cadillac at Hyundai prices , then talk to me about $99 Panthers.

 

[Fate X]

the difference is the profit margine.hobby breeders are less concerned about profit then people who are running a chameleon business.serious hobby breeders most of them are more concerned about bloodlines that will produce top shelf animals that will most likely end up being sold for less then $200.
when you sell to a petstore they are not really concerned about the lineage they are more concerned about the health etc.
i was just talking with someone about reptile breeding and making money LOL

and the facts are they is many other reptiles that are easier to keep then chameleons and sell for close to the same amount of money and they are easier to sell because people want animals that are easier to keep healthy and alive. thats just my piece of mind

 

[mrvoodoo]

My thing about the prices -- yes I do like the lower prices as that makes it more convenient for me, but I have to remember the costs in raising the animals and taking care of them. I'll throw out another analogy -- website design.

When I design a website for someone they're wanting a price between $50-200 and then they lay out everything they're wanting. Well if I spend let's say 20 hours developing the layout, graphics, and programming for the site and the guy wants to pay me $100 for the site - then I'm only getting $5 an hour... barely enough to justify the effort. Now being a hobbyist web designer and not looking to survive off of it, I can justify the time because I wouldn't be doing anything else anyway.

I could see being a breeder being a pretty time consuming effort. They've got to feed, water, monitor the health of the chameleons - plus take care of their feeders, and supplies for the feeders and chameleons. I like the $99 price, but I can't see how that's profitable at all - unless you're selling dozens a week. If I got a pair of panthers and I was going to sell the babies, I might consider selling them at the $99 price to people I know would take care of them (the majority of folks here) but only because I wouldn't be selling them to make a profit -- only to support my hobby.

I purchased my Jackson for $100 and it was fairly spontaneous. I knew about raising other herps, but I wasn't familiar with chameleons. I put him in a glass aquarium initially because I didn't take the time to research them before the purchase. I learned quick what I needed to do for him (and cussed petsmart in the process) -- for me $100 is pretty pricey ... I wouldn't have even purchased him at $150 spontaneously like that.

Now that I know more about raising chameleons and am looking forward to expanding my "family" - I'd love to add some panthers and honestly - while I don't see how they're able to maintain the $99 price - I'd definitely consider it when I do expand, though I may go with another breeder who I feel more comfortable with the health and quality of the chameleon.

 

[Brad]

Lets keep to the general topic of pricing, and not move the discussion to a specific person/company.

 

[Fate X]

if my panther eggs are good and hatch next summer i am gonna most definatly advertise the for sale at 2 months old.because a 2 month old will be 3 months in only 4 weeks,by the time people start buying them and money is in my paypal account a week will have gone by.theres always bigger babies i would sell those first then 2-3 weeks later those smaller ones have grown so it works out well.i know i am not gonna sell to many when i advertise them at 2 months anyway.

 

[KCcham]

I thought i'd offer up something thats been on my mind regarding the concept of $99 chameleons, though I know nothing about and have no beef or dealings with the breeder in question. Instead I've been thinking about this.

The mandarin fish.
This beautiful fish dies in massive quantities every year in the saltwater fish hobby. It is difficult to care for, and despite its small size requires a 100 gallon or so tank that has been established for a year or so to have a shot at survival. BUT it's pretty, easily harvested from the wild, and prices have dropped to about $10-$15. This results in a few things.
1) Everyone who walks into a store ends up buying one, while 90% of those people don't have and aren't willing to invest in the setup necessary to properly care for one.
2) WHEN not If, the animal slowly starves to death and dies over the course of 6 months to a year, being that they only cost $10, the person runs out and buys another, which they will kill again.
3) The low price has stopped any real attempts at research regarding the captive breeding of these animals. Instead they are ripped out of the ocean en mass to meet nearly certain doom.

My point is that the high price of Panthers helps discourage the casual customer from just taking home that pretty animal from the petstore without research. It forces a harsh financial penalty on those who do choose to neglect to follow the best path, and at least makes them think before running out to buy another.

Someone is much more likely to take a $300 animal to the vet vs. a $99 dollar animal. Fact of life.
Profitability also encourages continued research, and responsible breeding.

Obviously the prices of these animals has dipped a little bit to reflect the economy, and I'm not an elitist or wealthy by any means. I'm just concerned that a price war of this kind could be very detrimental to the animals.

I totally agree with the comparison to the mandarin fish! My job all thru college was working for a wholesale fish supplier. I had a 300 gallon reef set up with some mandarin fish in it that were thriving! we also had some for sale every week. with a $15 retail price, you can imagine what we were selling them for! we would always get some guy that owned a tiny pet store come in a and see our huge reef tank with the mandarin in it, then I would see on this guys list that he wanted like 5 of them! I always had to ask if they had a clue what they needed while they were in their store, let alone what to tell people when they came in to buy from them! I would try to talk them into something that was better suited for them and their store.
I have been out of that industry for awhile, but I can remember when they would use TNT or bottles of cyanide to collect them!

We also see the same type of pricing scheme with our company. My wife and I are both interpreters. We service 15 different hospitals, as well as countless jails and courts. Every year we see new people try to come and take our customers away by totally undercutting our pricing. But, with our industry, you get what you pay for! Are you willing to spend an extra $10 an hour to get someone who REALLY knows what they are doing for your murder trial, or someone who costs less, but it clueless about the process???????

I am not sure if that can translate to the Panther pricing, but its just my 2 cents

 

[gregdabender]

I am not sure if that can translate to the Panther pricing, but its just my 2 cents

Yep its the same with everything...you get what you pay for... bottomline

 

[Nicodemayo]

if my panther eggs are good and hatch next summer i am gonna most definatly advertise the for sale at 2 months old.because a 2 month old will be 3 months in only 4 weeks,by the time people start buying them and money is in my paypal account a week will have gone by.theres always bigger babies i would sell those first then 2-3 weeks later those smaller ones have grown so it works out well.i know i am not gonna sell to many when i advertise them at 2 months anyway.

Baby veileds are much more resilient than panthers are and in my experience, the survival curve between a 2 month old panther and a 3 month old is significant. In my opinion its not worth selling younger animals. They will end up in the hands of an inexperienced keeper and chances are they might die and then your know as the shady breeder that is winging off young panthers to inexperienced keepers. Not worth it. If you know for a fact the keeper knows what hes doing that's one thing, but even in the hands of the best, a young, heakthy looking animal can take a swing for the worst.


My thoughts on the cheap panther pricing is this.....

Anyone who has raised young chameleons knows how much work go's into the animals. Every single animal that hatches i pour time and my emotions into. Its hard to not get attached to these little guys, and its especially hard to loose a weak baby that fights and holds on until the day it dies but unfortunately, that's part of the hobby. Selling cheap panthers at a young age is only going to ruin not only their name, but scare people away from the hobby when people are loosing their affordable animal because of their own inexperience. It is possible for someone to go on a great forum like this, research as much as they can about 2 month old panthers, and be successful but how many people do you think are really going to do that? From what ive seen, people will come on here asking questions AFTER they lost their first animal and want to try again, which is awesome, but there's a wealth of info out there on chameleon husbandry and i don't care if your buying a panther chameleon, or a teddy bear hamster, any responsible pet owner should research before taking anything in and i do think with lower prices, people are less likely to do research on them. Chances are, the people that are charging higher prices for a panther are going to provide you with a healthier, higher quality animal. Someone who sell super low, obviously has a large quantity, or there's something wrong with them, and i know they dont have time to ensure each and every animal is eating correctly, their food is properly supplemented and gutloaded, etc and i can go on. For someone like me, that plans on staying small scale, i know if i have an animal that gets sick before its sold, im off to vet, and ill keep it as long as it takes until it fully recovers. Do you think someone with bulk quantities are likely to do this, or let the one chameleon out of hundreds die? Probably the latter. Bottom line is, you can pay for a cheap animal but you get what you pay for and i know me, and many others, no chameleon is leaving my care until they're taking down at least 1/4" crickets because my reputation is much more important to me than selling off a 2 month or younger animal to make a quick buck.

 

[ciafardo 4]

Veilds lay substantially more eggs in an average clutch among other things. Sometimes 60+ eggs in a clutch. Most breeders don't worry about bloodlines, etc. A veiled from the Kammers, who actually focus on quality, will cost you $85 plus shipping. Plus they are easier to obtain WC.

I will also say that locally, I usually see Veileds far too young for sale in stores. Looks to me like most wholesalers dump them at about 3 weeks.

yes i have a son of ancalagon and i must say i can see where the money went it is an absolutely beautiful animal

 

[ChromaChameleons]

I can appreciate the concern for those who are financially strapped. But if a buyer can barely afford a reptile and the concern is to provide a substantially reduced price for the Panther, then I assume such a breeder would also offer a subsidized veterinary service for these same customers, since their self professed motivation is altruistic and not monetary.

A person who can barely afford a pet , does not have the means to provide vet care , if it is required. I would also question a customers ability to provide correct caging , lights and husbandry , if $25 is so precious. These issues speak to my previous concerns.

And are customers able to get free advise from their point of sale breeder at any time. I'm fielding emails from the customers of other discounting breeders, because their customers choose not to or cannot approach the original breeder.

I don't have any issue with a breeder or hobbyist pricing their chams at whatever price they please. But the differences exist and have been outlined here and elsewhere.

You get a $99 Panther when you pay $99. There is a difference.

For those who want to produce discounted panthers, I wish you the best of luck. Please represent your product accurately.

 

[chequepoint]

This discussion is about the ethics and impact of selling these reptiles this cheap, not how someone is able to do it.
The cheaper an animal becomes, the more disposable it is treated both by stores and consumers. Quite frankly, when making a chameleon purchase, if the cost of the animal is a deal breaker, one has to wonder how you'll deal with caging, feeding, and vet expenses.

My point is that mass production of these animals at discount prices will only serve to hurt the hobby, and the animals. IMO

 

[Vegas Chad]

I see this is as a battle between something like a Hyundai and a Chevy... Chevy is a quality product made by a caring hard working and **law abiding** people. What they offer is what you get that is backed by a history that shows more of the same.
Hyundai on the other hand makes cars by the boat load in a dingy factory and sells them for next to nothing; They offer a massive warranty that if you ever wish to call in you have to jump through burning hoops. But in the end they don’t care because they just have another to replace it with. Questionable ethics and a company that makes everything from cars to musical instruments.

Though I don’t drive a Chevy I drive a vehicle that has a reputation that is just as good, makes only cars/trucks and that has the same view on ethics; I will always stay away from a company that has a ‘dark’ past and associations with illegal activates. Chevy has great public relations that people trust and respect. I'll pay the extra money and get something that I know is good, not save a few bucks to end up disappointed in the end.