Necropsy (Help Please)

[Karliah]

*Warning: Graphic Photos*
Read no further if you do not wish to see them.
In about 2 hours from posting this (when I get home from work) I will be attempting a necropsy on my female hoehnelii who died this morning.
I've been debating about it all day but ultimately decided to do it as I'm desperate to know (or at least try to find out) why she died. Two days ago, she *appeared* to be perfectly fine.
So I'm posting not only posting to possibly educate others, but also because I need some help. I'm sure I'll be able to identify major organs, but not all of them. Also help identifying things which look "wrong" as I've never done this before (of course I can spot a broken rib, but plenty of other things I could/will miss)
Hoping people jump on board so I can get help/answers/ideas as I'm posting, because I'm not going to keep bits and pieces laying around for very long (so I won't be able to "get a better picture" or "flip *something* over" after it's all said and done)
I will post her more detailed story after I'm off work, the proceed with the necropsy.

 

[Veild Cham Owner]

I am very sorry for your loss. Loosing a loved animal can be very difficult as i have lost many. I want to be a vet so i would love to see the pictures and help you figure out what happened to our chameleon. I will stay posted of this thread

 

[Karliah]

I am very sorry for your loss. Loosing a loved animal can be very difficult as i have lost many. I want to be a vet so i would love to see the pictures and help you figure out what happened to our chameleon. I will stay posted of this thread

Thank you.

 

[Karliah]

Backstory:
She came to me WC and gravid. Wanted to treat for parasites, but not while she was stressed from import, and also not while gravid. About 2 months later she had 7 neonates.
I tried introducing my male to her just to see/gauge her/his reaction to each other. It typical male fashion, he was excited, but she always became very upset and agressive. This peaked my curiosity as to why she was not receptive, so occasionally I'd put the male near her just to see what would happen, and she was always agressive, so I'd promptly remove the male. This made me wonder if she could possibly be gravid again (not sure if hoehnelli can retain and use sperm again). She did appear to be getting larger. (Hopefully the necropsy will either confirm or deny this)
Because of my sneaking suspicion that she may be gravid again, I did not want to treat for parasites. I hope this isn't what caused her death, but would also be relieved that it *technically* wasn't my husbandry that caused it.
Two days ago (March 22) she was acting completely normal, besides that fact she she wouldn't eat or drink. This seemed relatively normal as sometimes she chooses not to eat for a day, especially if my SO fed and let a few crickets escape into her enclosure. The next day (yesterday), she did not eat or drink either, but still her active notmal self. About 2 minutes before lights out my SO asked me if she looked weird. She was light colored, tail curled, eyes closed. I assumed she was just prepared for lights out, so wasn't concerned about it. This morning when I came down (about 30 minutes after lights on, she was in a totally different spot, but still her "sleeping colors", eyes closed, and her mouth slightly cracked open. That's the moment I knew something was actually wrong.
I went into panic mode. Called in late to work, and immediately came here to start trying to research what was going on. She'd open her mouth as if gasping, a "spit" bubble would come out and she'd take a couple big breaths before closing her mouth again. This made my think of a respiratory infection. I had some Fortaz (ceftazidime) on hand, but didn't want to use it without some sort of, well, confirmation I guess, that an RI was actually the problem.
From the moment I realized something was wrong, it was about 45 minutes until she died. She went downhill FAST. I mean incredibly fast. When I first "noticed" she was still moving around pretty normal, but her eyes were closed and mouth barely cracked open. Half way through she lost almost all coordination, and her back legs were grabbing her front legs. Towards the end she just layed there and didn't move at all.

 

[Karliah]

*Important*
I want this thread to be about the necropsy, and what is learned from it only. If if it finds something, or finds nothing, and my husbandry is to blame, then I can admit it, but I will assess what I did wrong and how to change it PERSONALLY, and not here on this thread. basically, I'm just trying tho avoid the questions like "what's your temps/himidity?" "What kind of lights do you have?" "How often do you dust?" and the like. This is not the place for those sorts of questions, because as stated I will deal with that PERSONALLY. I'm already devasted, and if I find out it was truely my fault, I will be even more so. I don't want people pokeing and proding for things like that while I'm trying to recover from the loss of my pet.
Thank you.

 

[Karliah]

*Update*
It will be a little longer before the necropsy begins. I have to wait for my SO to get home so he can help by taking the pictures and posting them.

 

[Andee]

I hope you find your answers. I have nothing to offer other than my support and condolences. I am so sorry for your loss, are the babies still doing well?

 

[Karliah]

I hope you find your answers. I have nothing to offer other than my support and condolences. I am so sorry for your loss, are the babies still doing well?

Thanks again.
6 of them are. One was small, weak, and frail... And didn't last very long.

 

[Karliah]

Couldn't take photos from the website so had to finish and now I'm posting them. Was much harder than expected, because of how small she was.
Her head is always to the left for reference.
All "labels" are very loose as I don't really know for sure what some stuff is.
Black spot (on both of her sides) are unusual.

Upon first opening, her entire body cavity is dark/black

On the "ridge" of her belly, just behind her front legs is a "green" spot. Definitely looks like a bruise to me. But NOT in the location of either of the black spots she had on her sides.

Cut back the ribs and there was blood "everywhere" more than there should have probably been (I'm guessing)
Organs are black and I'm not sure that's normal. You can see some of the blood on skin of her neck in the next picture.
Also found "eggs"...
Hoehnelli are a live bearing species, so I'm not sure if these are fertilized and forming neonates, or if they just have these "eggs" waiting around unfertilized, but I'd assume (from my limited knowledge) that it is not the later for the two. If they were in fact fertilized and forming, then this means she impregnated herself from retained sperm, as she and the male never touched each other.

Stomach looks like it has black "creaping" into it (more apparent on previous photo) and the intestines are black as well

Contents of stomach reveal foam/bubbles

This organ (not sure what it is) what the only organ that was not black, besides the lungs (which I did not get a good picture of) which were bright to maroon red

She had 12 "eggs" total. Seems like quite a lot to me, although I've heard of a female successfully having 12. Doesn't seem like she had much room for her organs, and they weren't even fully developed.

This one "egg" was green on one side. The strand it's in came from the area along her belly, so this one might have aligned with the "bruise"

Broke open a few "eggs" and didn't see anything at all inside.

So I'm thinking she:
A) fell hard and bruised/bled internally
B) had too many "eggs" to handle (possibly cruching organs and causing internal bleeding)
Or
C) some combination of A and B

As bad as it sounds, I'm hoping I'm right. As terrible and painful as it must have been for her, I'm glad it wasn't my husbandry, and not something I could do/fail to do and kill any other or future chameleons.

Let me know what you all think.

 

[alphakenc]

she and the male never touched each other.

Was the male in the same cage with her or can they see each other at all??
How hard did she fall?from what distance??

 

[alphakenc]

It seems to me that she was under extremely stress n fall hard under causing a very badly impact on her gravid body,plus with no water n food intake ,these combinations leads to her miserable death.
You can also ask @ferretinmyshoes ,she probably will give u a more deeper info,these are just my opinion with her death,Im sorry for ur lost n dont be too hard on urself.

 

[Karliah]

Was the male in the same cage with her or can they see each other at all??
How hard did she fall?from what distance??

No the male and female were completely separate and could not see each other. I only tried to introduce them to each other every now and then as stated above
We have no idea if she fell or not for certain, it's only speculation, again as stated above, so I can't answer those questions.

 

[Karliah]

It seems to me that she was under extremely stress n fall hard under causing a very badly impact on her gravid body,plus with no water n food intake ,these combinations leads to her miserable death.
You can also ask @ferretinmyshoes ,she probably will give u a more deeper info,these are just my opinion with her death,Im sorry for ur lost n dont be too hard on urself.

She did not seem stressed at all before her *possible* fall. Yes it is highly likely that she did, but I personally cannot say for certain. Not sure where that assuption came from as I stated previously that she was acting completely normal.

 

[alphakenc]

How long was she completely stop eating due to these eggs in her body are already in the development stage,you will have to consider all these into a main factor that can easily contributed to her death ,she can still looks normal from her appearance but her health might already starting downhill without a human eye can detect under her outward appearance.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Good job doing a necropsy! It's the best way to learn from a death sadly.
1. The green spot is staining from the gall bladder. It stains tissues around especially post mortem. It's why the "egg" had a green spot too. It's very normal and not bruising.
2. Black intestines are 100% normal in chameleons. It throws a lot of people off.
3. Foamy material in the stomach is normal.

The picture before the strands of eggs show kidneys dorsal (just under the back) and the fat pads ventral which are that white/tan color.

Even live bearing species do start embryonic development with a yolk, and unfertilized sometimes they're dropped as "slugs". Though everything does get crowded in there when gravid they were not compressing organs. Veiled chameleons can have 60 of those in their bodies. Crazy.

I don't see anything terribly abnormal except the liver is very dark in color but that can be a post mortem change depending on how quickly after death the necropsy was performed. Unfortunately I can't see all the organs well enough in the pictures. The only thing that sounds abnormal is the blood you described but I didn't see a picture of that and I don't see any blood pooling behind organs in the pictures.

 

[Karliah]

How long was she completely stop eating due to these eggs in her body are already in the development stage,you will have to consider all these into a main factor that can easily contributed to her death ,she can still looks normal from her appearance but her health might already starting downhill without a human eye can detect under her outward appearance.

Okay I'm pretty sure you are in agreement with the "results" I posted. So thank you for taking the time to look over these and give your opinion, so far it looks like not many others will.

 

[alphakenc]

Look up here comes the rescue,im jus doing a little pre work thats all.

 

[Karliah]

Good job doing a necropsy! It's the best way to learn from a death sadly.
1. The green spot is staining from the gall bladder. It stains tissues around especially post mortem. It's why the "egg" had a green spot too. It's very normal and not bruising.
2. Black intestines are 100% normal in chameleons. It throws a lot of people off.
3. Foamy material in the stomach is normal.

The picture before the strands of eggs show kidneys dorsal (just under the back) and the fat pads ventral which are that white/tan color.

Even live bearing species do start embryonic development with a yolk, and unfertilized sometimes they're dropped as "slugs". Though everything does get crowded in there when gravid they were not compressing organs. Veiled chameleons can have 60 of those in their bodies. Crazy.

I don't see anything terribly abnormal but unfortunately I can't see all the organs well enough in the pictures. The only thing that sounds abnormal is the blood you described but I didn't see a picture of that and I don't see any blood pooling behind organs in the pictures.

Thank you for your analysis of everything. It was so hard to get pictures as everything was just that same blackish color.
So do they ALWAYS create the yolk sacks whether they're fertilized or not? I guess I'm just confused how the whole cycle works for these guys.

 

[alphakenc]

They like a jackson can produce "slugs"

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

To be honest I don't know the cycle perfectly. Embryology changes vastly between animal groups. But let me do some research and see if I can find that answer for you! (tomorrow)