Necropsy (Help Please)
- Thread starter Karliah
- Start date
Karliah
Member
Thank you!
I've never heard or seen anywhere that proves that hoehnelii can retain sperm. If you have any links could you please share? I'd be very interested to read them.
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
I'm sorry for your loss.
I have 1.2 hoehnelii, possibly from the same import as yours came from. Mine were imported mid April. I, too, am just learning about the species.
I am not a veterinarian but everything looks normal in your pictures. The black pigment is normal and the lungs look normal. I believe the seeping of blood/fluids into the abdominal cavity after death is normal.
From my limited research on the species, I have been warned by people who have successfully kept them that they can die from stress related problems quite easily and go downhill very fast with little warning anything was wrong. Someone said they were similar to melleri in that they would just up and die with no apparent warning (because they were so small did not show their decline obviously). I have also been told that the female will produce two clutches in a breeding season and to not introduce my female to my male after she produced her 11 babies a few weeks ago. When I first bought them, I planned to house them together in a large cage as they are known to form some sort of a social relationship. The person who told me they were actually quite fragile also told me not to house them together as the stress could kill the female or cause her to have reproductive issues with the clutch she was carrying. I was told they like warm basking temperatures (high 70s to low 80s) but absolutely needed a big drop in temps at night.
I wonder if your stressing her by introducing her to a male was part of the problem or your temps/humidity weren't right.
What have you found out about successfully keeping them in captivity? The importer doesn't believe them to be fragile at all. I'm erring on the side of caution and treating them as if they are extremely fragile wild caughts although my group seem very hearty so far.
I have 1.2 hoehnelii, possibly from the same import as yours came from. Mine were imported mid April. I, too, am just learning about the species.
I am not a veterinarian but everything looks normal in your pictures. The black pigment is normal and the lungs look normal. I believe the seeping of blood/fluids into the abdominal cavity after death is normal.
From my limited research on the species, I have been warned by people who have successfully kept them that they can die from stress related problems quite easily and go downhill very fast with little warning anything was wrong. Someone said they were similar to melleri in that they would just up and die with no apparent warning (because they were so small did not show their decline obviously). I have also been told that the female will produce two clutches in a breeding season and to not introduce my female to my male after she produced her 11 babies a few weeks ago. When I first bought them, I planned to house them together in a large cage as they are known to form some sort of a social relationship. The person who told me they were actually quite fragile also told me not to house them together as the stress could kill the female or cause her to have reproductive issues with the clutch she was carrying. I was told they like warm basking temperatures (high 70s to low 80s) but absolutely needed a big drop in temps at night.
I wonder if your stressing her by introducing her to a male was part of the problem or your temps/humidity weren't right.
What have you found out about successfully keeping them in captivity? The importer doesn't believe them to be fragile at all. I'm erring on the side of caution and treating them as if they are extremely fragile wild caughts although my group seem very hearty so far.
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
I was told by a hoehnelii breeder that they will produce a second clutch without another breeding.
Karliah
Member
I've had her for about 8 months. When I first got her she was definitelty stressed, but after about a week and a half she settled in and was happy and unstressed, and had been just like that since then. Even took to the feeding cup I made for her (something thr male had not figured out yet).
The male and female were never housed together, and in those 8 months I only "introduced" the male 3 or 4 times and only after she had given birth. By introduced I mean he was on my hand and I'd hold him inside her enclosure... She'd puff up and be aggitated so I'd remove my hand with him on it and put him back in his enclosure. The whole process would last maybe 10 seconds, he wouldn't even grt off of my hand, and like I said it only happened 3 or 4 times.
Temps and humidity are spot on, and the temp drop at night is easy living in Arizona. The humidity increase at might was more of a challenge (and neonates need it more than adults), but I just have a fogger going to combat that issue. I based all my enclosure "stats" on info Chris Anderson gave another Hoehnelli owner in another thread.
Okay I'm glad to hear it. I couldn't find a reference anywhere online with my searching.
Karliah
Member
Thank you
That was the Definition just for "slugs" the key word I put in the sentence is a single breeding "MAY".....,here is some helpful links I would like to share with you regarding the female sperm storage,I found that pretty interesting,maybe u will like it maybe not...and I also heard by some hoehnelii breeder that they witness the situation.
http://www.academia.edu/16337320/Female_sperm_storage_in_reptiles
JoeVet
Established Member
Next time open the lungs up, especially if a respiratory infection is suspected. The lungs are fairly simple sacs and easily opened. They also have very thin walled air sacs. Lungworms are generally big enough to see. They can also get pentastomes in the lungs which look like worms but are thicker and actually have rudimentary legs. They are a primitive insect. The lungs look congested but that could just be post mortem.
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
When you say temps and humidity were spot on, what is "spot on"? Did Chris Anderson give you the temp/humidity range? Is there somewhere I can reference that? As I said, I really know very little about them and feel as if I am just winging it with them. I haven't killed any yet and I want to keep it that way. I have 1.2.11, the 11 babies born almost three weeks ago May 6. I worry that I haven't given them the attention they need attending to the 13 quads/graciliors I picked up from the import the day before the babies were hatched. I wasn't expecting the import and since it was the last one, so I bought as many as I could.
Karliah
Member
Thank you for the link!
The lungs were so "fragile" that upon removal they tore/opened. Didn't see anything that raised suspicion, and didn't get a picture as it was all just solid red, but I did inspect them, since I did think there could be parasites in there.
Not directly to me, but to several other people. I'll get some links together and post them for you.
If any of mine were going to die I thought it was going to be the male. He came (unbeknownst to me at the tome of purchase) with a horribly infected leg. A few vet visits and a lot of $$$ later he finally recovered after anout 2 months and 2 different antibiotics (at separate times). He wasn't eating or drinking. I had to force feed and force water on him every day plus administer the anitbiotics (first one oral, second was an injection). Despite this incredible amount of stress for a little over two months solid, he's alive and happy now.
I'm not saying stress doesn't kill chams, but I'm sure they all have their different tolerance levels, and I don't think it's what killed my female. So of course try not to stress them as much as possible, but just know that they might be hardier then we are lead to believe sometimes. I got the same story as you about how fragile and delicate they (this species) are as WC yet I man handled and shoved things into my males throat and stabed him with needles all those 2 months and he's fine. He actually wants/likes to be held now (weirdo).
You are more than welcome Karliah,good luck with the rest "unicorn" Trioceros Hoehnelii.
ThomasFord
Member
Really interesting, thanks for sharing.
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
Here is a picture of lungs of a Melleri that died. Ferretsinmyshoes, a vet, said they looked normal. I also tore them removing them from the body.
Please send me any information you have about hoehnelii. Can you send it to me in a pm since I am not reading CF as much as I have in the past and I might miss it if it is posted as a thread. They seem tough to me, but I do know one person who had a lot of experience with them saying that they often just up and died.
ThomasFord
Member
are you sure he/she didn't have any parasites? i think you said she fell but maybe she had a case of MBD and couldnt hold herself up well so she fell. But honestly im not a vet so i know absolutely 2% about this stuff.
Karliah
Member
That's how her lungs looked, just slightly more red.
Okay once I get the info I'll pm you.
Karliah
Member
As stated above there was a good chance she could of had parasites, but I did not see any that were large enough to be seen with the naled eye during the necropsy.
Also stated above was that I thought I found a bruise, so this lead to the assumption that she fell, but the vet, ferretinmyshoes, identified it as a stain from the gallbladder, and not a bruise.
She did not have MBD.
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
I'm sure she had parasites, but parasites don't normally kill a healthy animal with a healthy immune system.
