Is this a bruise or something more?

[mgebbie]

Ok, so I've been away for a week, and had a lizard sitter in place. He's significantly larger than I remember him. He seems to be plump and healthy, and urates are perfect. As I'm looking at his spine it seems to be bruised, but it also seems to be rather large. Any other input?

 

[camimom]

it looks like it could be a burn.
how hot are his basking temps?
any chance the mesh of your cage is getting hot?

 

[mgebbie]

His temps are around 88 F to about 93 F at the basking, and about 65-76 F everywhere else. He can touch the screen if he wants, but he usually doesn't. The heat lamp is hung about 2 inches above the screen itself.

 

[bradley]

It does look like a burn. Those spines will most likely die and fall off.

 

[camimom]

His temps are around 88 F to about 93 F at the basking, and about 65-76 F everywhere else. He can touch the screen if he wants, but he usually doesn't. The heat lamp is hung about 2 inches above the screen itself.

I would suggest that the temps be lowered some.
The highest temp should be about 85.
So I would move the light about 4-6 inches away from his highest basking spot.
This tells me that the back thing is more than likely a burn.
I would get some silvadene (SP?) cream, I think you can get at a pharmacy OTC. and put it on the spine.
JMO.

 

[fluxlizard]

His temps are around 88 F to about 93 F at the basking, and about 65-76 F everywhere else. He can touch the screen if he wants, but he usually doesn't. The heat lamp is hung about 2 inches above the screen itself.

I would suggest that the temps be lowered some.
The highest temp should be about 85.

I do have lots of experience with basking areas considerable hotter than 93 and mine have never burned. For that matter their "basking spot" here all summer is in the 90s, often the upper 90s, as they are outside in the sunlight.

Think about them in the wild in Yemen. Is it reasonable to believe that they somehow live a life never above 85 ambient let alone basking when temps in parts of their range climb up to 110 sometimes?

His temps are around 88 F to about 93 F at the basking, and about 65-76 F everywhere else.

To me this may point to what happened if it is a burn. You need a thermal gradient not a hot spot and cool everywhere else. A gradient heats a larger area and with lots of branches available in that area your chameleon can choose from a true range of temperatures to meet it's needs at any given point in time. Everything from warm to cool available gradually within the space. If the choice is hot or cold- it will choose hot and burn itself. Especially if your basking light is kind of weak and your ambient temps are low so the lizard takes a while to warm it's core while it's surface burns.

Probably that is what happened here.

I agree with the probability that it is a burn, and that it should be treated. I disagree with the source of the problem if you are correct about figuring your temperatures. My veileds have a wide range of temperatures going all the way up to 100 or even more at the hottest spot and I've never had a burn in 20 years...

Lizards need a thermal gradient, not a hot spot and cool everywhere else...

 

[camimom]

I do have lots of experience with basking areas considerable hotter than 93 and mine have never burned. For that matter their "basking spot" here all summer is in the 90s, often the upper 90s, as they are outside in the sunlight.

Think about them in the wild in Yemen. Is it reasonable to believe that they somehow live a life never above 85 ambient let alone basking when temps in parts of their range climb up to 110 sometimes?



To me this may point to what happened if it is a burn. You need a thermal gradient not a hot spot and cool everywhere else. A gradient heats a larger area and with lots of branches available in that area your chameleon can choose from a true range of temperatures to meet it's needs at any given point in time. Everything from warm to cool available gradually within the space. If the choice is hot or cold- it will choose hot and burn itself. Especially if your basking light is kind of weak and your ambient temps are low so the lizard takes a while to warm it's core while it's surface burns.

Probably that is what happened here.

I agree with the probability that it is a burn, and that it should be treated. I disagree with the source of the problem if you are correct about figuring your temperatures. My veileds have a wide range of temperatures going all the way up to 100 or even more at the hottest spot and I've never had a burn in 20 years...

Lizards need a thermal gradient, not a hot spot and cool everywhere else...

When a chameleon is outside, the temp can gradually change as it gets lower in the cage. if the light is so close to the cage, then its not going to change, and thus create the hot spot.
Also, while yes, in Yemen in the wild, they may experience hotter temperatures, these are no longer wild chameleons. Therefore, due to breeding in captivity, they may nto be able to withstand the same temperatures as wild veields can.

Its not the temperature that can cause a burn, its the intensity of the light from a heat source.
If the lamp was too close, and heated the mesh too much, and the chameleon touched it, it could cause a burn.
Think about it, if you stick your arm in the oven, but dotn touch anything, do you get burned? no.
But if you touch one of those racks, you do.

similar concept.
I suggested lowering the temp and raising the light to reduce the heat output on the mesh or whatever he can touch that could have heated up and caused the burns.
While I wont disaggree that you are taking wonderful care of your chams, your chams are used to the heat. others arent.
IMO if my cham got burned, I woudl reduce the heat output until the burn healed, as well as keep the temps a bit lower to try to prevent it from happeneing again.

)not trying to sound harsh, just stating my opinion.)

 

[fluxlizard]

When a chameleon is outside, the temp can gradually change as it gets lower in the cage. if the light is so close to the cage, then its not going to change, and thus create the hot spot.

Really? In your yard the temperature at 6' off the ground is much warmer than 2' off the ground? In my yard it is the same. Shade and misters provide the the temperature gradient in my cages outside, not distance from the sun.

Indoors, if things are set up correctly, you can have your light right on the cage and still provide a suitable thermal gradient rather than a hot spot. I do.
For some lizards (not the arboreal species) I can even hang the lights inside the cage itself and still provide a thermal gradient. Multiple basking lights with varying wattages can also be strategically used to create a thermal gradient in some situations. The key is always the thermal gradient, not a simple hot spot.

I think in some ways we are similar in our approach (thermal gradient can also be created by raising a light off the cage, but it needs to be powerful enough to warm the area and not just a spot in order to create a thermal gradient). But different in our understanding of what is going on.

Therefore, due to breeding in captivity, they may nto be able to withstand the same temperatures as wild vields can.

I don't really think so- millions of years of adaptation to match the needs of the animal to that harsh environment are unlikely to be undone too far in 20 years of captive breeding. And do you think I only use chameleons descended from my original stock which have adapted to my conditions or do you realize that I must buy new bloodlines regularly from other breeders over the years which would be presumably kept slightly different from my own?

Its not the temperature that can cause a burn, its the intensity of the light from a heat source.

So sunlight which is the most intense light heat source compared to any light bulb should cause lots of burns on wild chameleons... Of course this is not correct but why then? Because the heat penetrates to the core of the lizard- it's core warms before it's surface burns. A hot (or warm) spot and cold cage can cause burns because a light bulb is exactly less intense and so the heat does not penetrate deeply quickly- the lizard burns it's surface while trying to warm it's core.

Think about it, if you stick your arm in the oven, but dotn touch anything, do you get burned? no.But if you touch one of those racks, you do.

Yes- if the chameleon touches the metal and it has been super heated enough to burn, it will burn. Is it probable that this chameleon pressed it's back against the metal mesh and burned without burning his head somehow?
And if that is the case- the cause would be a need to move the branch away from the top so the poor chameleon can fit without pressing his back against the mesh when basking...

If you put your arm in an oven to warm yourself for more than a few minutes in an oven- say several hours a day- you can burn. What if you had to climb inside or be chilled and somehow a fan pulled all the heat up and out of the oven so you had to choose to go into the oven to try and get yourself warm or leave the oven to go outside and be cold? What if your brain, immune system, tongue function, digestive system, etc were all linked to your ability to be warm? You would choose the oven sometimes and burn if you were a chameleon. That is what happens to your lizard if you have a small warm spot and a cool rest of the cage. I am saying turn up the oven so the lizard can stand near the oven at distances it chooses if it wants to warm and isn't forced to climb inside to find any heat. This is what happens in nature - often sunlight will cook them if they cannot move away when they want, but they can still use the ambient warmth from the sunlight...

Cage size only slightly effects this unless the cage is extremely undersized. I create thermal gradients for babies in the smallest reptariums with temps covering the full range from about 70 to about 100...

I suggested lowering the temp and raising the light to reduce the heat output on the mesh or whatever he can touch that could have heated up and caused the burns.

I think your advice for what to do now is good and have no disagreement.

In some ways we are similar in our thinking (raising the light could create a thermal gradient), but not our understanding of exactly how the environment may have caused the problem.

IMO it probably wasn't the basking temperature, but how it was provided without the creation of a true thermal gradient so the lizard wasn't forced to use the hot spot long enough to burn itself.

)not trying to sound harsh, just stating my opinion.)
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Me too. And not saying anything about the success of your approach.

 

[camimom]

So we agree to disagree. lol. To each his own.
At least we agree it is most likely a burn, and how to fix it.
i do agree that it wasnt necessarily the basking temp itself, but how it was provided. I think by lowering it, (and i sayt his becase it can be hard to get a gradient temp control for some people) it could prevent it from happeneing agian, if there is still a hot spot.

 

[fluxlizard]

So we agree to disagree. lol. To each his own.
At least we agree it is most likely a burn, and how to fix it.

Speaking of which though-

Could also be bacterial infection. If so, most likely from brushing back against screen top. Or could be start of a shed - I can't tell from picture really.

Best advice as always is go see a vet.

 

[camimom]

Speaking of which though-

Could also be bacterial infection. If so, most likely from brushing back against screen top. Or could be start of a shed - I can't tell from picture really.

Best advice as always is go see a vet.

its possible its a fungus.. maybe start of shed, but it seems to dark for that. most shedding is whiteish greyish... but then again, ifhe starts to shed tomorrow.....
and i agree vet visit always good.

 

[mgebbie]

I've tended to the hotspot. The screen where his basking spot is warm to the touch only. It is far from hot. I didn't make this clear, but the temps in the cage are a gradient throughout, I just didn't record them.

Thank you,
I'll treat it as a burn, and see what happens within a week or less, and then move forward accordingly.

 

[camimom]

I've tended to the hotspot. The screen where his basking spot is warm to the touch only. It is far from hot. I didn't make this clear, but the temps in the cage are a gradient throughout, I just didn't record them.

Thank you,
I'll treat it as a burn, and see what happens within a week or less, and then move forward accordingly.

it might feel warm to you, but it could be hot to his skin. JMO.
And applying the silvadene cream can help if it is a burn, if it isnt, then it shouldnt cause any more issues than whats already there.

 

[mgebbie]

Ok, so Silvadene is not over the counter. I'll have to contact a vet tomorrow morning. However, in my search for Silvadene I did find a similar topical treatment: Silver gel which contains silver chloride and antimicrobial agents. Would this work in the meantime, or should I stick with the tried and true?

Thank you
Margo

 

[ataraxia]

You do need Rx for silvadene.

Something aint right...

Are you using a "spot light" type bulb for a basking bulb?

With temps ranging from 60's to the 70's...No way is the basking temp only fluctuating from 88-92*. Something is not right here. Your heat temps will raise more than 4* from a 11* variable on ambients.

How are you measuring temps? Can you post a picture of the set up and how you measure temps....

 

[mgebbie]

I've changed the distance between the basking branch and the top of the screen cage, so I'll have to remeasure everything tomorrow. I'll also post pictures in the morning of his setup. I have a thermometer/hygrometer set up for him. It measures the temperature at the basking spot and the ambient (approximately middle of the cage).
Margo

 

[mgebbie]

Update:
His new basking spot is about 6 inches from the top of the screen, and the heat lamp is about 2 inches above that. The temperature at the basking spot is currently 80*F.
He has well over 20 highways and branches and lots of foliage to cover him throughout the enclosure, so he can choose his temperature.
The temp. in the middle of the cage is about 65*F, but it can club to 75*F+ as he nears the basking branch.
The humidity fluxes between 50-70% with two-three mistings and a constant dripper available.
When cleaning his spine with warm water and then patting it dry last night he showed no signs of discomfort, although perhaps he has no functional nerve endings at this point in time.

The last photo shows his basking spot about 6 inches below the top of the screen.

Thanks again,
Margo

 

[ataraxia]

Are you using a "spot light" type bulb for a basking bulb?

How are you measuring temps? Can you post a picture of the set up and how you measure temps....

Type of bulb used for basking?

In the pics i dont see any therms or hygrometers.

 

[mgebbie]

The basking light is just a 60 watt incandescent. The thermometer has a probe at the basking spot, and is set at the middle of the cage (off to the side).