T. Hoehnelii Swollen Neck

[kcbunique]

Hey everyone,

I was hoping that I could get some help here. I found my chameleon just now laying over a branch, on his side, limp almost lifeless. His neck seemed to be quite swollen. I gave him a warm spray as I didnt know what else to do. He came upright and I took him out to see what was the matter. Usually he tries to get away from me if I try and scoop him up but this time he didnt even move. He was very weak or lethargic in my hand so I clicked 2 quick pictures and put him back in his basking spot. I just sprayed him again and he moved a bit more quicker out of the way. I don't know what this could be. I've seen him drink and eat just yesterday so I don't think its dehydration or starvation. He will be 9 months next week. If anyone has any type of input that would be helpful it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much for taking the time to help me out.

 

[kcbunique]

In the second picture it looks like I am holding his leg back in an awkward position but thats how he held it, he didnt want to grab onto anything.

 

[GCash]

Swollen neck is usually gular edema and indicative of improper organ function. Montanes are sensitive to over supplementation and is usually the first place to look. I've seen/heard reports of simple flare ups just from certain batches of crickets that were raised on too much preformed or synthetic vitamins. Please fill out the "how to ask for help" sticky in the health clinic forum and someone might be able to help figure it out. Best of luck.

 

[junglefries]

Edema! Usually corrects itself after some time. Try some different feeders for a while.

 

[jajeanpierre]

That's a gular edema. Gravity will make it show up under the neck between the front legs like that. There are many causes for it.

One often overlooked cause is a heavy parasite infection. There needs to be protein in the blood to keep the blood serum inside the blood vessels and not leaking out into the tissues (edema). A heavy parasite load will deplete the animal of protein and you can get an edema. I think it is the same mechanism that gives severely malnourished/starving protein deficient children their pot bellies.

I have found certain orders of crickets and supplements to give my quads edema. Certain cricket orders are really problematic for me, even when I feed them really good gut load, fresh clover and grass and fresh fruits and vegetables. I try to feed my crickets for a week before I even think about giving them to the quads.

If I ever give my quads even a tiny amount of Replashy Lo D vitamins, I get edemas, even though other quad people stand by the brand. I ordered Miner All and am terrified to give it to them, especially since some have edemas that I attribute to the new order of crickets that I didn't feed long enough.

I believe the supplement that the montane's (or at least my quads) don't seem to tolerate well is synthetic D3. I regret not getting the Miner All for outdoor chameleons without D3 (or I think it doesn't have D3).

Edemas are also caused by various organ failures.

Edema that is not associated with diseased organs such as heart or kidney failure, shouldn't cause any weakness. Something else might be going on.

Is it a wild caught and have you had a fecal test done on it?

The weakness you describe is troubling. Fill in the the How to ask for help questionnaire. Are your temps appropriate for this species? Your "sprayed with warm water" comment stood out--montane species tend to like it pretty cold.

 

[Carlton]

That's a gular edema. Gravity will make it show up under the neck between the front legs like that. There are many causes for it.

One often overlooked cause is a heavy parasite infection. There needs to be protein in the blood to keep the blood serum inside the blood vessels and not leaking out into the tissues (edema). A heavy parasite load will deplete the animal of protein and you can get an edema. I think it is the same mechanism that gives severely malnourished/starving protein deficient children their pot bellies.

I have found certain orders of crickets and supplements to give my quads edema. Certain cricket orders are really problematic for me, even when I feed them really good gut load, fresh clover and grass and fresh fruits and vegetables. I try to feed my crickets for a week before I even think about giving them to the quads.

If I ever give my quads even a tiny amount of Replashy Lo D vitamins, I get edemas, even though other quad people stand by the brand. I ordered Miner All and am terrified to give it to them, especially since some have edemas that I attribute to the new order of crickets that I didn't feed long enough.

I believe the supplement that the montane's (or at least my quads) don't seem to tolerate well is synthetic D3. I regret not getting the Miner All for outdoor chameleons without D3 (or I think it doesn't have D3).

Edemas are also caused by various organ failures.

Edema that is not associated with diseased organs such as heart or kidney failure, shouldn't cause any weakness. Something else might be going on.

Is it a wild caught and have you had a fecal test done on it?

The weakness you describe is troubling. Fill in the the How to ask for help questionnaire. Are your temps appropriate for this species? Your "sprayed with warm water" comment stood out--montane species tend to like it pretty cold.

This is excellent information! I haven't needed to deal with edema so far luckily!

 

[jajeanpierre]

This is excellent information! I haven't needed to deal with edema so far luckily!

You are really lucky. My veileds can eat anything anytime with no problem, ever. Not so with my quads.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

I wonder if anyone has a good diagram of a chameleon's circulatory system. It would be interesting to trace the edema to its source. Is it due to a swollen liver, backing up the blood flow, resulting in a higher blood pressure in the veins? Similar to the esophophageal variaces in alcoholics (the liver is swollen due to damage, it squeezes the hepatic veins, causing a backup. This increase in blood pressure causes the blood vessels in the esophagus to swell, and eventually leak blood into the throat. unpleasant.)

I have to refresh my saurian anatomy... 3 chambered heart. Different plumbing... hmmm... this could be fun.

I've not had gular edema with deremensis, melleri, veileds... not in 15+ years. Back then, I gave them much more D3, and I only saw it in one female veiled that was gravid. So far, none with my jacksonii. I give them a small amount of liquid multivitamins each month, so they definitely get preformed A.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I wonder if anyone has a good diagram of a chameleon's circulatory system. It would be interesting to trace the edema to its source. Is it due to a swollen liver, backing up the blood flow, resulting in a higher blood pressure in the veins? Similar to the esophophageal variaces in alcoholics (the liver is swollen due to damage, it squeezes the hepatic veins, causing a backup. This increase in blood pressure causes the blood vessels in the esophagus to swell, and eventually leak blood into the throat. unpleasant.)

I have to refresh my saurian anatomy... 3 chambered heart. Different plumbing... hmmm... this could be fun.

I've not had gular edema with deremensis, melleri, veileds... not in 15+ years. Back then, I gave them much more D3, and I only saw it in one female veiled that was gravid. So far, none with my jacksonii. I give them a small amount of liquid multivitamins each month, so they definitely get preformed A.

My understanding is that it is leakage of fluids from the blood vessels into the tissues. It's the why that is the puzzle.

For mine, I can trace it to crickets and vitamins and the vet thinks it is all compounded with a heavy parasite load as they are recent wild caughts. Of my 8 wild-caught quads, a few have never had edema. Some have never had an edema until this last shipment of crickets--I misjudged how many I had left and realized mid week I was almost out so waited to order on a Monday. I fed them after two days and immediately got mild edema on two that had never had edema before.

If I get paranoid because I don't feed a vitamin and give them even a tiny bit, I'll get edemas. I'll cut my multivitamin in plain calcium just to be sure I don't give them too much but it's like clockwork--I give any multivitamin and I get a bit of an edema. I have yet to try the Miner All.

I was going to try Timberline's vitamin fortified crickets and then realized I might be just giving them the absolute worst food possible--lots and lots of synthetic vitamins. I can feed crickets pure good stuff and they will still instantly cause edemas. Whatever it is, it seems to be stored in the crickets for weeks. Until my chameleons will all hand feed (cockroaches) and I can get a sustainable colony going, I do buy crickets although I like to rely on silk worms as the main staple.

Right now I have one little female quad that had really ripped up toes from a screen cage. The vet gave me Panalog for it, just to reduce the swelling and pain she was in. It has an anti bacterial, anti fungal, anti itch plus a steroid to reduce inflammation. She immediately got a huge edema. She also was diagnosed around that time with another protozoa infection, and that was after two clear fecals. Did the steroid give her the edema? Was it the parasite load? Both? We don't know but I am going berserk because she has a huge edema and had never had one ever since the day I bought her in February a day after import. My vet leans toward protein deficiency from a heavy parasite load. I think it is whatever the commercial cricket farms are feeding their crickets. It's probably a combination plus other triggers.

Edemas make me crazy.

 

[junglefries]

I had a female panther who had it for about 4-6 months. She is kept in a row, seperate cages, of 4 females who share the same lighting, water, feeders, laying bins, everything. She was the only one to get it. After her first clutch, it was gone and hasn't returned. It was weird.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

edema can be caused by a number of things. It is a result of inflammation sometimes, for instance. However, what we are dealing with is likely as you describe: fluid leaking out of blood vessels.

Tiny capillaries are just a few cell layers thick at most. There is fluid in the blood (plasma) and fluid in the cells (interstitial fluid, which is essentially the same thing as plasma - think lava and magma). The fluid is kept in balance through diffusion of water across the membranes. If the animal is dehydrated, the cells of the body lose fluid. When they lose water, they have more solutes in them than the blood does. The cells become salty, the blood is less salty, so water moves from the blood to the cells, balancing things out. This is kept at equilibrium though normal day to day living, under NORMAL metabolic processes.

When you upset that balance, for instance, INCREASING The blood pressure of a portion of the circulatory system, you have edema. Thin of a hose with thousands of tiny tiny holes in it. If you turn the water on and open the end of the hose, the water will come out. Now, close off the end of the hose a bit - pressure will build up, and those tiny little holes will begin to leak.

Say this hose is a tiny little capillary in the gular region of a chameleon. the fluid leaks out into the tissue. multiply this by thousands of capillaries, and you have gular edema.

Now, the metabolic equlirium can very well thrown off by low albumin. If I recall correctly, IV albumin is a treatment for some conditions when generalized edema is encountered. More dissolved protein in the blood will draw fluid from the tissues into the blood.

The question is HOW exactly does edema present itself in chameleons? Is gular edema just in the gular region, or is it akin to generalized edema, from a systemic, metabolic problem. OR, is it localized to the gular region because that is where the problem is.

Only edema I've seen is gular or ocular. Anyone ever seen edema in chameleons in other parts of the body?

I would like to know if the metabolic process that results in the edema is hepatic (liver) in nature. Vitamin A overdoses can and do result in liver damage. Could also be to fatty liver.

I'm going to take much more time when I do a necroscopy in the future.

 

[jajeanpierre]

edema can be caused by a number of things. It is a result of inflammation sometimes, for instance. However, what we are dealing with is likely as you describe: fluid leaking out of blood vessels.

Tiny capillaries are just a few cell layers thick at most. There is fluid in the blood (plasma) and fluid in the cells (interstitial fluid, which is essentially the same thing as plasma - think lava and magma). The fluid is kept in balance through diffusion of water across the membranes. If the animal is dehydrated, the cells of the body lose fluid. When they lose water, they have more solutes in them than the blood does. The cells become salty, the blood is less salty, so water moves from the blood to the cells, balancing things out. This is kept at equilibrium though normal day to day living, under NORMAL metabolic processes.

When you upset that balance, for instance, INCREASING The blood pressure of a portion of the circulatory system, you have edema. Thin of a hose with thousands of tiny tiny holes in it. If you turn the water on and open the end of the hose, the water will come out. Now, close off the end of the hose a bit - pressure will build up, and those tiny little holes will begin to leak.

Say this hose is a tiny little capillary in the gular region of a chameleon. the fluid leaks out into the tissue. multiply this by thousands of capillaries, and you have gular edema.

Now, the metabolic equlirium can very well thrown off by low albumin. If I recall correctly, IV albumin is a treatment for some conditions when generalized edema is encountered. More dissolved protein in the blood will draw fluid from the tissues into the blood.

The question is HOW exactly does edema present itself in chameleons? Is gular edema just in the gular region, or is it akin to generalized edema, from a systemic, metabolic problem. OR, is it localized to the gular region because that is where the problem is.

Only edema I've seen is gular or ocular. Anyone ever seen edema in chameleons in other parts of the body?

I would like to know if the metabolic process that results in the edema is hepatic (liver) in nature. Vitamin A overdoses can and do result in liver damage. Could also be to fatty liver.

I'm going to take much more time when I do a necroscopy in the future.

Please share your necropsy results.

I believe edema shows up in the throat area partly because that is where it easily collects. Add gravity and you get that big swelling like in the picture.

I have one quad imported in December that has been trying to die forever but my vet and I won't let him. Surprisingly, he continued to grow through all his health crises, and there were many. In December he was 36g and now he is 94g. He's had a really bad edema for the longest time and, yes, the edema seemed to settle in his body.

He had various abscesses and the vet thinks one (or two) abscesses settled around his pelvis. He had edema around the pelvis but it might have been complicated by the abscess(es). His edema was so bad, I feared he would pop out his eyes whenever his blood pressure rose such as when the vet lanced and drained an abscess on his back.

A few weeks ago his appetite started to decrease and after consulting with the vet we decided to give him a round of Flagyl as one of my other imports had come up with a protozoa infection after two clear fecals. His appetite is still poor but his edema seems to have completely resolved. He's dropped 5g but that might be fluid loss because he was really bloated. He now looks pretty deflated and pathetic but has had no signs of edema for a couple of weeks. He has mobility issues and I don't put crickets in his cage so he rarely eats crickets.

I would love to hear other people's experiences with resolving edemas.

 

[kcbunique]

Thank you everyone for all of your posts! At this moment his Edema is looking alot better but he is pitch black. Only a few shades of green show through. I haven't been able to determine if it was an injury from possibly falling or if it was bad greens I let my feeders gutload on. Hoping that he gets back to his usual self. I did see him eat and drink to so I feel as though we may be in the clear for now. Below is a picture of him I took today.

 

[kcbunique]

Thank you everyone for all of your posts! At this moment his Edema is looking alot better but he is pitch black. Only a few shades of green show through. I haven't been able to determine if it was an injury from possibly falling or if it was bad greens I let my feeders gutload on. Hoping that he gets back to his usual self. I did see him eat and drink to so I feel as though we may be in the clear for now. Below is a picture of him I took today.

Also might I add that he has his regular pajama colors of white and light green.

 

[junglefries]

Thank you everyone for all of your posts! At this moment his Edema is looking alot better but he is pitch black. Only a few shades of green show through. I haven't been able to determine if it was an injury from possibly falling or if it was bad greens I let my feeders gutload on. Hoping that he gets back to his usual self. I did see him eat and drink to so I feel as though we may be in the clear for now. Below is a picture of him I took today.

My girl really seem to be upset about hers, too. She was shy, and not often very bright. However, upon clearing up, she was just as before it happened. Would never have known she had it, minus the pics. She asked me to trash those, said it was unflattering.