Rethinking the Basics (Big Read)

[Kammo]

Hi everyone, this is my first post after being on this site for almost a year now and I would like thank all of you, especially to the veterinarians, senior members, and psychotic rabbits for providing such informative advise towards the care of my chameleons. My wife and I purchased a panther and a carpet chameleon at the beginning of this year and we have gone through such a big $$$ learning curve. We never posted a question before because we usually found the answer from one of you on this site. For this we thank you. I never imaged how much was involve in caring for chameleons! But still, there are a few things that are unclear to me, and hopefully some of you can answer some my questions with scientific answers.

1. Lighting - I have come to conclude that no matter how much money you spend on lighting, your chameleon still needs to have approximately 1 to 2 hours per week of direct sun light in order to avoid MBD. I take mine out for 20 mins every other day, because mine are indoors and are not near a window. (This should be addressed more in the care sheet for those new at keeping their Chameleon indoors). I know that there are many posts and videos discussing the level of light emitted from certain bulbs, but it doesn't tell you how to measure the amount of light your reptile actually receives. Is there a way? There are also many posts stating that a 5.0 UVB only produces a fraction of light produced by sunlight, so then, why is a 10.0 UVB too intense for a chameleon?


2. Supplementation - I follow what most of you suggest (dusting with calcium every day and multi vitamins / D3 every other week), but I got to thinking why and did some research. Calcium is water soluble and any excess the body doesn't use will be eliminated, but multivitamins are not and an excessive amount can be toxic to a chameleon. This is where the confusion comes in to play.... My chameleon weighs 78 grams and consumes approximately 3 to 5 crickets daily. After dusting all 5 crickets with multi vitamins, I found (through measurement) that he consumed .001 milligrams or 1cc of supplement. Is this too much? I think so. Why are we not addressing mg per gram weight when supplementing a reptile? Also, chameleons are daily consumers and like us they require daily nutrients to function. With this said, why not dust just 1 or 2 crickets weekly with multi vitamins instead of all at once??? Hummm....

3. Moisture and humidity - Most chameleons derive from tropical settings where they require moisture and high humidity. Like most of you, I set my auto mister to 3 times a day for 2 min intervals. I also have humidifiers sending the moisture directly down into the cage for most of the day. I do this because my a/c is pulls most of the humidity out of the room to a humidity level of 30%. My chams like sitting under this about a week before they shed. With that said, I have read several books and posts here stating that your cage must be kept dry ...... What?? That is completely contradicting and if you mist several times a day, that is impossible! I understand that you don't want standing water because of bacteria and other health issues, but to a new chameleon owner this is confusing. I'm just saying.

I know that there are many topics her, but feel free to comment on any of my concerns as other new chameleon owners might feel the same way.

 

[Saldarya]

I will try to provide some feedback to each of your points understanding that there are many ways of keeping Chameleons in regards to your specific questions.

1. It is absolutely possible to keep them indoors with no natural sunlight without them having MBD. I do try to get mine out when I can, but there are times of the year (to hot or cold) where I can not. In addition, with over 75 chameleons at the moment (some babies) it is not feasible to get them all out. You can measure UVB output with a Solarmeter. There are some papers out there that discuss specific numbers to shoot for but IMO using the meter as a tool to keep an eye on any declining bulbs is the best use.

2. Lots of subjectivity in this question not to mention that it will vary based on the species. In regards to the panther that you mention, the suggested dosing although not very specific has proved out over time. You, and all hobbyists, need to learn to adjust supplementation based off of outside time as well as what you gutload with.

3. There is a fine balance between adequate watering and allowing the cages to dry out. You simply have to work through what works for you. There are many variables to include humidity levels, density of plants in the cage, size of cage, etc.....I have found that 2 mistings a day of 15 minutes each mixed with a dripper for multiple hours a day works great for me.

Just sharing some thoughts.

 

[Sanababit]

4. Mealworms, i have read that thay are not a staple diet for a chameleon, it causes impactation, aren't nutritious, so why sell them if they're better choices out there

5. Substrates, beign from the wild wouldn't chameleons live over substrate?, altough they live up high, they might go down once in a while, specially females, heck i read some of them even eat dirt, lol

Sana

 

[kinyonga]

Good to know that you have been learning a lot about chameleon's on here!

Regarding sunlight...I have kept chameleons for over 25 years and they get very little natural sunlight....and in spite of it they have usually lived long healthy lives with no apparent signs of MBD. I'm not saying that it's not a good thing to get them outside by any means. I have used Repti-sun 5.0's for most of that time. You might find answers to some of your questions on this Site...
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/lightingsurveyintro.htm

One thing you do have to be aware of is that no matter how they are getting their UVB they need to be able to move in and out of it at will so they can control their exposure.

Regarding vitamins...you said..."calcium is water soluble....but multivitamins are not"...this is not true. PrEformed vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E and vitamin K are fat soluble and the rest are water soluble. The fat soluble ones will/can build up in the system and lead to overdoses but the rest won't/can't so we have to be careful of them. I see no reason why you couldn't dust one or two crickets weekly instead of twice a month. I suspect the reason we suggest doing it twice a month is to simplify things while ensuring that they get some while leaving them to get the rest from their diet and from our good feeding/gutloading. Again...all I can say is that there have been no apparent problems with my chameleons doing it twice a month.

I don't mist multiple times a day and I don't let water stand on the floor of the cages. I mist twice a day except for the hot hot days in the summer when I may mist more. I do run a dripper at least once a day too.

Many things said about keeping chameleons can be confusing including the dry cage issue. It's partly because there is more than one method that works for people when it comes to keeping chameleons and people tend to tell what they did and not change what they did if it worked (kept the chameleon alive). (Hope that makes some kind of sense.) We still have a lot to learn!

Hope this helps.

 

[Hoj]

Interesting post.

I too keep my Chams almost entirely indoors and do not have problems with MBD. And being in Canada most months it just is not an option to get outside. The answer lies in your other topics uv and supplements

With regards to your question on 5.0 vs 10.0 I do use the 10.0 or stronger even the 12% Arcadia T5 and that is where I find the solormeter handy.
The sun is much stronger than any of the bulbs typically available but in the wild the chameleon has a whole world at their disposal to position themselves to acuire the appropriate amount of sunshine and when using a stronger bulb the setup needs to be created to give the chameleon these options.
I also use a solormeter to keep track of bulb strength and will even add layers of screen between the light and Cham to dull down the uv output.

With my supplements I do things that you are asking about. One is that I do not use the standard calcium everyday and cal w/d3 and multivitamin bi weekly. I use and all in one daily formula but go with a schedule of one day plain calcium. One day calcium plus all in one. And one day with nothing then repeat. As well as when you mention the amounts for weights I use different amounts and make adjustments to the schedules as I see needed by the individual chameleon

With the water I have found that a few small mistings ( less that 2min ) throughout the day maintains humidity while allowing the cage to dry up. That combined with a nice long misting around noon ( approx 5 min ) allows the chameleon enough time to get in a good drink.
For any Cham I feel needs more water I will run a dripper often as well as shower time.

Most things with regards to the keeping of chameleons on here that are considered the basic rules and info are made as a basic guideline that with 90% scenarios will work just fine and have positive results. As keepers become more confident in the understanding of what their chameleon needs likes and seems to thrive on they will most often fond themselves making adjustments from to the norm into a style that works for them.

Hope that helps more than not lol

 

[Kammo]

Thanks guys, those were excellent responses! I'm glad to know that there are successful variations in maintaining a healthy chameleon. I guess the answer lies in doing what works for your Cham.

My number one issue is still on lighting. I just find it hard to believe that chameleons can live on artificial light their whole life without having health issues. I'm not disputing this, I just find it amazing being that they use the sun to synthesize calcium and other things.

Thanks again

 

[Carlton]

My number one issue is still on lighting. I just find it hard to believe that chameleons can live on artificial light their whole life without having health issues. I'm not disputing this, I just find it amazing being that they use the sun to synthesize calcium and other things.

Thanks again

About lighting and UV exposure...remember that a cham in the wild isn't sitting out in full sun all day long. Of course they tend to bask in the morning to warm up, but roam their territories that have varying levels of shade and sun the rest of the day, every day, month after month, year round. They can regulate themselves by using a large area. In the typical captive situation they may be exposed to a static bulb that puts out a limited spectrum until it wears out. Even though the intensity of our bulbs don't approach the sun, it is still a more focused beam from which they can't roam too far.

I'll add my voice to the others who say their chams live almost entirely indoors under lights. I've kept quite a few chams over the years and never had one diagnosed with MBD. I also tend to think we misdiagnose MBD fairly often. Calcium/phosphorus/Vitamin D3 metabolism isn't simple and I think there are other complications from imbalances that appear to be MBD when in fact the problem is not straightforward. We still have a lot to learn about nutrition especially as we feed such a limited diet.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Those are all great questions to ask to better understand not only how things are done but why things are done. You've gotten some great responses so far. I'll just my thoughts as well.

1. It is absolutely ideal to get your chameleons outdoors as much and as often as possible. Nothing beats real sunlight when it comes to health benefits. However, it is not true that they must have real sunlight or they will get MBD. I raised two clutches of babies last winter without ever being able to get them outside because it was too cold for them. Babies are the most susceptible to problems since they're growing so fast. Not one of them showed any trace of MBD. And many breeders and owners simply cannot get their chams outdoors. While natural sunlight is best and definitely encouraged, the synthetic version is sufficient for proper growth and health if maintained properly. You'll notice that the care sheets say that either a 5.0 or 10.0 is appropriate because, as you've pointed out, neither one of them comes close to UVB exposure from real sunlight. If your cham is confined to area with a UVB bulb over it then they are getting those rays because they don't have a choice so there's no need (or way) to measure how much they are getting specifically.

2. To make the math correct 0.001mg = 0.001cc. We don't know the exact levels of vitamins that chameleons require as it has not been studied very well. Research requires a lot of money and unfortunately as such a niche market pet they don't get a lot of funding. So we can extrapolate from what people have had success doing versus what has not been successful and find the common trends to use. Since some of the vitamins are fat soluble and stored in the body caution needs to be used with supplementing those. Certainly there are multiple ways to do things correctly and for the dedicated/experienced keeper you will find that sometimes you stray from the prescribed practices because you find something else that works just as well. But for those learning how to take care of these already very complex reptiles simplicity is best to cultivate success. You have to learn the basics before you can learn the advanced stuff.

3. There is difference between air humidity and moisture level of the cage. While this may be confusing it is just another aspect of keeping a reptile with more advanced care. In a tropical setting like with chams you have higher humidity in a warm climate - that is the perfect setting for bacteria and mold to grow. So if you also have standing water or very moist conditions in the crevices of the cages that is exactly what you will get! And since most people allow their chams to hunt down their food you do not want the crickets eating any of that bacteria and mold before your cham eats them. Or sometimes chams will even lap up standing water so you don't want them to be drinking contaminated filthy water. So the cage should dry out between mistings to prevent bacterial and fungal growth.

4. We have no control over what the pet industry does. And chameleons are not the only reptiles or pets that pet stores cater to. Hedgehogs and sugar gliders love mealworms, my baby turtles love meal worms, my geckos get some mealworms. They sell what makes money. The most we can do is educate people that they're not great feeders for chams and that there are many better ones.

5. Yes chameleons will be over substrate in the wild. However they may be 20-50 feet above the ground high up in a tree far, far away from that substrate for most of their lives. We cannot recreate nature perfectly so if you have to chose an area that is most like where chameleons would be living in a wild setting would you chose the base of the tree near the ground or higher up in tree branches away from the ground where they are consistently found? You only get 3-4 feet of cage to work with. So we chose what is more natural for where chams are found, up away from the ground since that is where they spend the vast majority of their lives. That's why their feet are so cool. Chameleons do not generally go down a tree trunk and shoot their prey off the ground so in cages where they may not have a choice why risk them also shooting up substrate to introduce the risk of impaction? Females are the exception because they need to lay eggs so my female has a laying bin of sandy soil in her cages at all times. She may sometimes walk on it to chase down a bug but otherwise pays no attention to it. Chams don't miss substrate if we don't provide it.