Pygmy Chams and Dart Frogs?
- Thread starter Ultrakd
- Start date
Champhibians
New Member
pygmys and dart frogs do not have the same conditions at all, other than they are both in glass tanks and need misting. Darts you seal the tank up for humidity in most species, pygmys have to have a screen top.
Fidel
New Member
I have considered doing this before, and I still want to try it sometime. I keep dart frogs as well as chams, and build elaborate terrariums for them, so the natural progression for me is to want to combine them.
I have a couple theories on how it could possibly work. I have seen it done before, in zoos, online, and in magazines(to lazy to find links right now). They were able to do it mainly because of the massive size of the vivariums. An enclosure big enough to create mirco-climates of various humidity would be ideal. The dart frogs need higher humidity than would probably be healthy for a pygmy chameleon. Realistically, say a 90 gallon, something with enough height so the humidity could be high on the floor of the viv, and dryer at the top, with a screen lid. You could also rig computer fans for ventalation at the top. A drilled tank for drainage would be a must also, or a pipe running into the bottom for a pump to slide into to drain it.
Another option would be to choose frogs with somewhat lower humidity requirements, like mantellas. They need 60-80% humidity while pygmys like brevs need around 70%.
Again, I have never tried it, so this is just my speculation from experience with building countless frog vivariums. I have no idea how the two species will actually interact.
my two cents
-matt
I have a couple theories on how it could possibly work. I have seen it done before, in zoos, online, and in magazines(to lazy to find links right now). They were able to do it mainly because of the massive size of the vivariums. An enclosure big enough to create mirco-climates of various humidity would be ideal. The dart frogs need higher humidity than would probably be healthy for a pygmy chameleon. Realistically, say a 90 gallon, something with enough height so the humidity could be high on the floor of the viv, and dryer at the top, with a screen lid. You could also rig computer fans for ventalation at the top. A drilled tank for drainage would be a must also, or a pipe running into the bottom for a pump to slide into to drain it.
Another option would be to choose frogs with somewhat lower humidity requirements, like mantellas. They need 60-80% humidity while pygmys like brevs need around 70%.
Again, I have never tried it, so this is just my speculation from experience with building countless frog vivariums. I have no idea how the two species will actually interact.
my two cents
-matt
Chameleon996
New Member
my 2 cents
I wouldn't try it. I keep darts and have kept pygmy chams in the past. The tank set up is different, while building both of them with false bottoms and drainage layers is a plus, from there up the differences come in to play. Darts need high humidity (glass lid), lots of lush green plants, and some of them can be quite active. Pygmy chams need more ventilation (screen lid), more of a woodsy setup (sticks wood branches) and are not as active. I would think that the constant movement of the darts would cause unneeded stress to the little chams. Not to mention that most pygmys are WC and carry parasites as with darts being CB they do not. One or both would probably die of parasite issues brought on by stress factors. Just my opinion though.
I wouldn't try it. I keep darts and have kept pygmy chams in the past. The tank set up is different, while building both of them with false bottoms and drainage layers is a plus, from there up the differences come in to play. Darts need high humidity (glass lid), lots of lush green plants, and some of them can be quite active. Pygmy chams need more ventilation (screen lid), more of a woodsy setup (sticks wood branches) and are not as active. I would think that the constant movement of the darts would cause unneeded stress to the little chams. Not to mention that most pygmys are WC and carry parasites as with darts being CB they do not. One or both would probably die of parasite issues brought on by stress factors. Just my opinion though.
reyesjoshuacruz
Established Member
90 gal, is enough space to thermo regulate the different zones. give it a shot, build the 90 for darts, add a pig and monitor closely..
you have seen it done in articles, so it can be done and you know that, but it wont be easy and everyone here is telling you its not a good idea because its not a good idea for someone who isnt going to work with it untill it works for all the animals, if you are willing to work on it and not just throw everything in there then try it.
food for thought,
every animal is different. for example my group of pigs spend most of their time in the upper parts of their enclosure off the ground, there is plenty of good real estate on the floor, but regardless of the temp, lighting, humidity level, they all prefer to be 2+ ft off the ground.
this is not common for the species as far as ive been told
you have seen it done in articles, so it can be done and you know that, but it wont be easy and everyone here is telling you its not a good idea because its not a good idea for someone who isnt going to work with it untill it works for all the animals, if you are willing to work on it and not just throw everything in there then try it.
food for thought,
every animal is different. for example my group of pigs spend most of their time in the upper parts of their enclosure off the ground, there is plenty of good real estate on the floor, but regardless of the temp, lighting, humidity level, they all prefer to be 2+ ft off the ground.
this is not common for the species as far as ive been told
merumontanus
Avid Member
Ultrakd,
New World amphibians and Old World squamates? I agree with others. Not only do they exist in completely different habitats (different climate, vegetation, altitude), but are both also diurnal, and more terrestrial than arboreal, which means that you would have highly active frogs feeding and making use of the same space, during the same time the chameleons are active-- I think it would be extremely stressful to the lizards.
Additionally, the pathology of both animals may differ greatly considering they are oceans apart, and this may introduce further risks to animals not used to (or immune) to certain diseases, parasites, etc-- just look at what's happening to amphibians worldwide with the mass epidemic of the chytrid fungus, with certain species being more vulnerable than others.
Although most dart frogs in the US are captive bred, and thus no longer contain the same level of toxicity as their wild counterparts, all amphibians remain "toxic" at some level-- they all differ in their chemical makeup-- and who knows what effect that could have on organisms from another habitat, not to mention continent.
I would seriously consider, if you must have a multi-species display, other animals from close geographic areas, at least of East African origin, and most importantly, those with opposing photoperiods such as small nocturnal geckos.
Keeping them separately is still the best option.
Good luck,
Fabián
New World amphibians and Old World squamates? I agree with others. Not only do they exist in completely different habitats (different climate, vegetation, altitude), but are both also diurnal, and more terrestrial than arboreal, which means that you would have highly active frogs feeding and making use of the same space, during the same time the chameleons are active-- I think it would be extremely stressful to the lizards.
Additionally, the pathology of both animals may differ greatly considering they are oceans apart, and this may introduce further risks to animals not used to (or immune) to certain diseases, parasites, etc-- just look at what's happening to amphibians worldwide with the mass epidemic of the chytrid fungus, with certain species being more vulnerable than others.
Although most dart frogs in the US are captive bred, and thus no longer contain the same level of toxicity as their wild counterparts, all amphibians remain "toxic" at some level-- they all differ in their chemical makeup-- and who knows what effect that could have on organisms from another habitat, not to mention continent.
I would seriously consider, if you must have a multi-species display, other animals from close geographic areas, at least of East African origin, and most importantly, those with opposing photoperiods such as small nocturnal geckos.
Keeping them separately is still the best option.
Good luck,
Fabián
merumontanus
Avid Member
Again, with the exception of certain species (green anoles and green tree frogs, for example), mixing species is not recommended. If you're serious about keeping reptiles successfully, keep them separately, at least until you gain more experience, especially chameleons.
DryWater
New Member
frogs and pygmies
I will have to keep an eye on this thread but I've currently just recently set up a small enclosure that contains a male and female pygmy as well as two dart frogs and a juvinal tree frog.
It is my understanding that the tree frog will take years to mature enough to be able to eat the pygmies and by then they will most likely have died from age(life span being 2-3 years tops)
They have all been together since saturday the 3rd of jan, and so far seem to be getting along just fine, the pygmies show no sign of stress and actually presented thier expected colors only after being put into the enclosure together, I am misting 2x a day with a hand mister, based on how humid it is, the frogs sleep most of the day when the chams are moving around cept for about an hour or so before bedtime, the tree frog rarely moves much until after dark but I've been providing small amounts of food for the chams in the morning then about 2-3x as much in the evening to keep everyone happy.
I will have to keep an eye on this thread but I've currently just recently set up a small enclosure that contains a male and female pygmy as well as two dart frogs and a juvinal tree frog.
It is my understanding that the tree frog will take years to mature enough to be able to eat the pygmies and by then they will most likely have died from age(life span being 2-3 years tops)
They have all been together since saturday the 3rd of jan, and so far seem to be getting along just fine, the pygmies show no sign of stress and actually presented thier expected colors only after being put into the enclosure together, I am misting 2x a day with a hand mister, based on how humid it is, the frogs sleep most of the day when the chams are moving around cept for about an hour or so before bedtime, the tree frog rarely moves much until after dark but I've been providing small amounts of food for the chams in the morning then about 2-3x as much in the evening to keep everyone happy.
OntarioLizardman
New Member
instead of using posion dart frogs (south america) i would conisder a mantella ( madagascar) or two with pygmies, depending on how big the tank is. keeping different species of frogs is not recommended, their urine can be posionous to other species of frogs.
OntarioLizardman
New Member
but good luck!
DryWater
New Member
After talking to lots of people and dispite the chams not showing any signs whatsoever of stress, I decided to after a few weeks of being together seperate the frogs from the chams, at the same time I added another male and female to what I thought were a male and female but looks as if it were two females....the jury is still out on whether the smallest member is actually male or female....
emessis
New Member
After talking to lots of people and dispite the chams not showing any signs whatsoever of stress, I decided to after a few weeks of being together seperate the frogs from the chams, at the same time I added another male and female to what I thought were a male and female but looks as if it were two females....the jury is still out on whether the smallest member is actually male or female....
Having multiple females with one male would be better, from what I have heard. Pygs are often kept in breeding trios, with one male and two females. So if you end up with one male and three females, you would still be doing fine (unless anyone knows otherwise, say that more than two females would cause issues of some kind).
OntarioLizardman
New Member
what species of frog did you use? i think mantellas might be a better choice than PDFS ( mantellas and brookesia are both from madagascar)
OntarioLizardman
New Member
PDFs are diurnal
