Naturally Occuring Panther Hybrids

Joe,

I don't mean artificially as in forcing them to breed like they wouldn't. I meant artificially as in introducing individuals from locales that would otherwise never meet naturally. Even locales that aren't separated by ocean, etc., really aren't directly cross breeding with the other locale. They are separated by a large enough distance that this level of gene exchange would not occur. The gene exchange is at a much more immediately local scale that very very gradually over generations and generations spreads between our defined localities. With such a gradual exchange, by the time genes reach the other locale we've defined, they are doing so at a much lower level then we could ever simulate by crossing locales. This is why in some areas there is a very gradual transition between what we characterize as locale characteristics. Like I said earlier, the East coast locales are a good example of this very gradual continuum. The West coast seems to have more extreme delineations due to lower exchange due to increased isolation between locales.

We really could argue that everything about keeping animals in captivity has removed factors contributing to the evolution of these animals. To be honest, we aren't trying to maintain the evolutionary ball rolling in captivity since we're never going to release them back into the wild. I would argue instead that by maintaining localities, we are trying to maintain their true wild condition as best as possible by only breeding individuals that in the wild would potentially breed. To do this, you want to be as specific as possible. Regardless of our conception of how close the locales might seem, gene frequencies vary between locales because of reduced exchange and I believe that maintaining these natural gene frequencies as closely as possible by trying to breed pure locales is as close to having individuals that accurately resemble their wild counterparts as possible.

Also, while the idea of a genetic test for locality sounds great, its never going to happen. There isn't the market in chameleons to justify the incredible expense it would take to develop such a test. Also, the test would be expensive to run once it was developed.

Anyway, I personally feel there is strong rational to focus completely on locale purity in our breeding efforts and not intentionally cross locales but I'm a purist I guess.

Chris
 
Kent, one thing to keep in mind is that these geographic barriers don't have to be huge mountain ranges or rivers to reduce gene flow and increase genetic isolation. If memory serves me (I don't have any of my resources with me and don't have the time to go looking) the Ambanja area is a big valley. This is enough of a barrier to significantly limit gene flow.

Chris, another thing to keep in mind and worth mentioning is that there IS gene flow between locality-types. If there wasn't, how did the species get to Nosy Be, Nosy Tanikely, Nosy Komba, Nosy Boraha, Nosy Mitsio, etc. in the first place?? Yes, gene flow is reduced, but they are most certainly not isolated. When we're talking about gene flow in evolutionary time, there is still genetic exchange going on for the whole species.

EDIT: Whoops, I see you did in another post.

Now, the point I was making is that in the case of the mainland, I'm not aware of any impassable barriers such as rivers or mountain ranges for this species. The following map shows that other than the tsingy and Mt. Amber, it all appears to be less than 300m in elevation:
http://www.mobot.org/mobot/research/madagascar/images/colhs.jpg
 
Last edited:
SoCaliSon

All of this is as usual, IMMHO.

Either way you look at it, IMO both are great reasons not to focus our marketing around Locale. At least not until we have learned enough about the science of their genetics to actually gurantee the Locale of a Panther through blood work.

And what do you propose to replace the Law of Supply and Demand ? Locales, as we know them to provide income and fund the hobby, exist because of the marketplace. The buying public pays the bills, not the pseudo-scientists. This is Economics 101. My degree is in biology, btw :cool:.

I just bred a Ambi/Nosy cross to a Nosy Be, and the way in which it happened tells me that if these two were to have overlapping ranges in the wild (which these two locals don't, but others do)

Nope.
 
I may be mistaken as to the location (If I am please correct me), I think it was you, Kent, that pointed it out in the video in the Panther Tour thread ... Wasn't there pics of them walking across a sand bar to Nosy Be from the main Isle.

It was from Nosy Be to one of it's own small, offshore islands.

If you ask me...we are suckers that have bought into this gimmick of the "pure locale" and now we have the unfortunate attitude of "I wouldn't touch a cross with a ten foot pole." In captivity we are striving to accomplish "pure locales" and calling crosses "hybrids", well if you ask me the "pure locale" that we like to brag about is non existant in terms of evolution and the chaos of nature.

I'm just catching up so please bare with me. Add to this the fact that a "locality" is a place, so, locality specific really means place specific. Were all Ambilobe panthers caught IN Ambilobe?? Of course not, the only thing being bred here are "color and pattern specific" animals that conform to what is espected of wild panthers in a "general" geographic area.

Keeping the localities distinct in captivity is part of the fun of the hobby for most customers, so it's what most breeders try to do, if they want to sell their offspring for the best price in the quickest amount of time. When a bloodline is proven to produce color and pattern specific animals, it is inherently worth more because of the predictability.

I believe the original premise was flawed. My short answer is that the concept of "naturally occuring panther hybrids" is an oxymoron. As pointed out, the "labels" we assign and expectations of color are just that, expectations of man, often driven by marketing. Mother Nature could care less. :D

Exactly :)
 
Last edited:
Keeping the localities distinct in captivity is part of the fun of the hobby for most customers, so it's what most breeders try to do, if they want to sell their offspring for the best price in the quickest amount of time. When a bloodline is proven to produce color and pattern specific animals, it is inherently worth more because of the predictability

Ding Ding Ding ... We have a winner !
 
:DI am loving this... and I hope that my comments do not piss anyone off, or climb on any nerves... I really am learning a lot here. Nothing but respect for everyone involved, and if at any point I do piss anyone off...Please send me a pm and tell me to shut the hell up...I might listen:D;)

I am still confused as to why some are so quick to say that one locale could not cross over and end up encountering another local in the wild. We are talking about nature... And if there is anything we have learned about it, is that it can overcome incredible bounds for any range of different reasons, and surprise us. To me this doesn't even sound that incredible. I know I have read in a few places that there are more than one local of panther that have been found in overlapping territories...I am doing more research to try and back this up...I'll let you know what I find. But considering my personal belief that we should never underestimate the power of nature, as far as I am concerned on an island, All the locales overlap. To me the thought of a chameleon or group of chameleons, expanding or traveling into another area (maybe even undetected), of a fairly small land mass in the ocean, over even a matter of years does not sound like something we should really rule out. Seems more than possible to me from a humble standpoint. I agree with Dank in the idea that some kind of change in conditions, Maybe food runs out, maybe competition gets to rough, maybe a kid on vacation grabs one, takes in the car back to the hotel, and released you before getting back on a plane at the end of the vacation, I could go on. Too sell those possibilities short I think would be a mistake.

None of this is to say I am against trying to breed a True Locale... This all is really... well, really just me talking out of my ass trying to form points to progress my own thinking.:D I myself actually have a pair of Nosy Be's I am going to breed next year, I just want Blue Chams... I could give a hoot about the label.

Really thanks a lot guys...Wish I could buy everyone a beer right now!

Cheers! lol

~Joe
 
As pointed out, the "labels" we assign and expectations of color are just that, expectations of man, often driven by marketing. Mother Nature could care less. :D

And that's the bottomline well said.

thats what is so interesting with panthers...you really dont know what you going to get. you can have a idea but but thats all.
 
Imagine the genetic mess the hobby would be in if we as a community didnt strive to keep locales pure. i agree with everyone stating keeping pure locales is a major part of the experience of keeping these animals. Its not easy to keep things pure. hobbies arent fun when they are easy :)

Ive seen members i trust state f2+ gens of crosses are genetically weak, thats enough reason for me to keep it pure

If the majority of the public didnt want to buy and breed pure, there wouldnt be should a price point difference reflecting the market.

can anyone argue against keeping locales pure in captivity?

are there any other examples of known cross breeds in captivity or the wild in any other species of chameleon other than paradalis?
 
has anyone done any tide research on the chanels between the islands and the mainlands of madagascar?

i imagine they couldn't be more than 25-50 miles away and with tides coming back inland, that makes an endurance swim more of a float. and chams are one of the most bouyant lizards and good sized four legged vertebrates. they can generate a lot of alligator tail motion, but the feet in my opinion are certainly short of aquatic, they can't generate the same foot paddle like an alligator obviously, so they have adapted to use the ability to fill up with air to the advantage of survival instinct.

if you are a chameleon on water and you are a survivor, you will float until you float ashore, obviously it will be hard to float for ever and most will die but the most elite will survive and float until they make it ashore to provide there super genes to many female chams on the inland strengthening the population, and to me this is survival of the fittest in a way that is not affected whatsoever by humans i believe this would hold true if there were no humans around.

I believe that socially chameleons take roles in the territory. and have a much better idea of exactly which chameleons are in a good radius than we may think. I have no evidence to support this. I believe this for many reasons, but its all part of my social chameleon theory. I believe the most dominant males are aware that they are even at a young age, and cause themselves to grow faster, eat more, and while they were the most elite to begin with, there own consciousness of this role, causes them to act in such a way to control this position, territorial and damn smart. instances like this with super cham making it ashore, invigorates the breeding colony that may have grown a little bit, not lazy but just not super invigorated due to the fact that these chameleons know who is around and then suddenly there is a new dude in town who is badass and now there is a crazy mix of locale, with this new super cham breeding with all the females, the males that were already there get pissed and start seeking all the other females they can in surrounding territories and next season you have a lot of babies hatching from the stimulation this one super male caused in this theoretical colony off the beach. so then you have all these mixed "locale babies" that will probably breed with all the other babies sired by the pissed off "local" male chams. Considering chams have probably been around for quite a while, there have probably been many of these instances, which have most likely played a pretty good role in locale's as we know them, and natures' barriers and envirment variations, have done a decent at best job of keeping them divided into general color codes

considering i know next to nothing, this seems like something you can't ignore when you think about chameleon locales, gray areas in between locales, and similarities between locales seperated by water.

also I don't know for sure how long chameleons have been around, i imagine quite a while, but i do know about continental shifting and i know that i can probably deduct that a less adapted and evolved form of chameleon probably existed on pangea when madagascare and africa were part of a larger mass of land of the middle east , you can almost see on a map how they fit perfectly together like puzzle pieces, you then see continents shifting away a couple feet per year due to the plates of the earth and the mid atlantic ridge. shifting away from each other and the chameleon species that made it to either side of the continental split adapted more and more.

what would become africa and madagascar gradually drift bit by bit into more of a subtropical climate with a lot more rainfall than the chameleon species like veileds that stayed on the other side of the continental split and adapted to areas that are more dry(by eating vegetation for its water contents and seeking valleys where dew naturally collects for them and the insects they feed on), warmer due to less clouds and rain coverage and being closer to the equater

considering i have no idea what i'm talking about this is just an example of how chameleons would probably have evolved using 7th grade science logic. i'm 21 lol. and I have heard way to few theories like this so i thought i'd throw a little bit of my thoughts out there even though they are mostly bs, its more of a symbolic occurence that probably didnt even happen to get people thinking ;)
 
Last edited:
I am a new member and I find this particular thread very interesting! I am intrigued in eccentric color pattern genetics and their phenotypes. I breed heirloom plants and betta splendens and now have found Panther Chameleons!
So I am essentially *bumping* this for its valuable information-
Thanks to all involved for representing all the varied aspects of this color issue!
 
Im glad you bumped this thread. Ive never read it before. I like threads where you can have a good natured discussion showing both sides of the debate.
 
I don't think that Panther locales breeding with one another is a hybrid, it's more of an intergrade.
 
Keeping the localities distinct in captivity is part of the fun of the hobby for most customers, so it's what most breeders try to do, if they want to sell their offspring for the best price in the quickest amount of time. When a bloodline is proven to produce color and pattern specific animals, it is inherently worth more because of the predictability

Ding Ding Ding ... We have a winner !
Ding Ding Ding ... We have a winner !

I agree. The predictability of the male offspring colouration is really what people are after.

Paradalis fucifer is a single species, aint it? So cross-locals breeding isnt really making hybrids, is it? Not like mixing Horse and Donkeys to make a Mule.
 
I don't think that Panther locales breeding with one another is a hybrid, it's more of an intergrade.

Paradalis fucifer is a single species, aint it? So cross-locals breeding isnt really making hybrids, is it? Not like mixing Horse and Donkeys to make a Mule.

Furcifer pardalis is one species but the term hybrid is not limited to crosses between species. A cross between two species would be an interspecific hybrid while a cross between two locales or populations (as is the case in this thread) would be a population hybrid. Both are types of hybrids so using "hybrid" to describe locale crosses is accurate.

Chris
 
i have always had been intrigued by this topic and just came across this thread...i rarely find a thread that i will go through and read every post for but this one is very interesting, so for that i am merely posting to bump this in hopes that others will get the same joy and wealth of knowledge as i did
 
Back
Top Bottom