Lethargic chameleon... Blind???

[ckmazdaspeed3]

Your Chameleon - I have a seven month old male veiled chameleon
Handling - Everyother day, a couple times for about five minutes... Five minutes before putting him in his six foot tall ficus and five minutes before putting him back in his cage.
Feeding - crickets gut loaded with a gut load blend from local reptile shop and water gel.
Supplements - daily calcium w/o d3 plus with d3 and multi vitamin biweekly.
Watering - Warm water spray 1 to 2 times a day (never used drip system). I won't see him drink for a day or two, but then I will see him lap it up like a dog
Fecal Description - daily droppings that look dark brown and are firm with white urates... My female had dehydration problems initially and yellowish urates. His have never resembled those.
History- purchased from local reptile store where they have kept a veiled and a panther for years that are not for sale and look healthy... I bring that up to show that they have some idea of how to take care of a Cham.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - screen cage, 36" wide, 20ish deep and 30" ish high.
Lighting - I have thrown the boxes out at this point, but they are correct. They were required by the pet store and were the same kind recommended on here... UVB and a heat bulb. Nothing is on during the night. However, one is a newer spiral UVB bulb... I am aware of the history, but when I purchased it, I saw no conclusive evidence on here that the new ones were detrimental to a chams eyesight.
Temperature - high 80s in basking spot and mid to high 70s at other parts of the cage. Night time temps can drop to low 70s to low 60s.
Humidity - I have not measured humidity. I spray the cage for a few minutes 1-2 times daily and I live in Missouri, so it is not the driest climate to begin with.
Plants - yes, the kind that looks like a schaeffera (sp?) but with larger leaves (I thught it was a schaeffera when I bought it). I have seen a few bites out of the leaves but that is it. And these bites were all very sporadic.
Placement - the cage is in a bedroom and the highest part is about five feet high. The bed room is a pretty low traffic area. Many days my feeding and watering is the only traffic. No vents blow directly on the cage and we haven't had the air on for about a month anyway.
We live in st. Louis.

Ok, so the problem is he stopped eating s few days ago. I know because the crickets have started to pile up in his cage (I'm not adding more at this point). I don't know if he is eating a little or not (there is a small hole in the cage and I know that a couple crickets get out daily). Up until a week ago, I would hear him eating and see him eating while feeding the female (located about ten feet away for the last 4 months and neither have shown any sign of knowing tha the other exsist).

Also, before when I reached in the cage for him hwe would try to get away from me a bit and now he just sits there.

He is still drinking.

Tonight I tried a few things to get him to perk up. First, I tried putting him right next to the female (5 months old). I have never put the, in sight of each other and at first he didn't react at all. It was only after about five minutes of beinng face to face that when she started to run away (I pit them on the big ficus) he chased her, but stopped when he was next to her and she was staying still... He did try to hump my hand when I picked him up... So at least he is displaying some life. But no head bobbing or puffing up or anything... Again, I have never our them face to face before (except when they were babies once... The reaction was a lot more intense then than now). Then I put her next to him in his cage thinking that he would be pissed, but the reaction was the same. When she moved he would move after her, but he would stop when she did.

Anyway, so then I put her back (I felt horrible for doing that to her, but Elvis is the king and I am so worried)) and put him rig in front of a mirror. I've posted pics, and you can tell that he has no reaction at all.

Lastly, I put him in his cage, got right up in his face and flailed my arms around like a mad man about two or three inches away from him... Nothing.

Oh, and I placed him on the ground and for the first time ever (he has probably been on the ground 50+ times) he did not change colors.

His colors all night whether on the ground, in front of a mirror, in the presence of a female, or in his cage have beem normal male veiled colors.

He looks completely normal except for his lethargy and lack of appetite. His eyes and skin look as they always have.

Any ideas besides taking him to a vet... Could he be blind?

Edit: excuse the egregious spelling, my laptop is dead and I'm on a stupid IPad.

Edit 2: I'll do some research o on here tonight, but wanted to get something posted ASAP.

 

[ckmazdaspeed3]

 

[bigcappa]

One thing that usually perks up any cham is to put them in the shower on a plant let let them steam up for a good 30 minutes see if that does anything for him. Also it prob wouldn't hurt to raise his temps a tad, at least see if it does anything for the big man. You could give him a better range in feeders and see if that perks him up any. Maybe a big ol hornworm, some dubias. Good luck.


Edit: Also thinks for reading the forums rules and posting the health issues form without anyone asking first!!

 

[ckmazdaspeed3]

Thanks, I will try all three tomorrow for sure.

 

[ckmazdaspeed3]

Bump for extra advice

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."when she started to run away (I pit them on the big ficus) he chased her, but stopped when he was next to her and she was staying still"...if he couldn't see how could he chase the female?

You said..."when they were babies once... the reaction was a lot more intense then than now"....but was it a mating reaction or aggression?

You said you "put him rig in front of a mirror. I've posted pics, and you can tell that he has no reaction at all"....they don't often react to their own image in a mirror.

Does he keep his eyes open all the time during the day?

If he's not feeling well, it doesn't surprise me that he didn't react to your flailing or being put on the floor. The lethargy and lack of appetite can be an indication that something is wrong.

Have you tried getting him to follow a movement (wiggling finger, for instance)?

You said he's drinking, try putting a cricket between his teeth when his mouth is opening while he's drinking to see if he will eat it.

I know you said not to suggest the vet, but if he's sick there isn't much choice.

 

[ckmazdaspeed3]

You said..."when she started to run away (I pit them on the big ficus) he chased her, but stopped when he was next to her and she was staying still"...if he couldn't see how could he chase the female?
My thought was that he could maybe see her shape and size and that her movements were enough for him to recognize her as a female... I should have been clearer when I said blind, I meant mostly blind
You said..."when they were babies once... the reaction was a lot more intense then than now"....but was it a mating reaction or aggression? Aggression.

You said you "put him rig in front of a mirror. I've posted pics, and you can tell that he has no reaction at all"....they don't often react to their own image in a mirror. Ok, I knew that panthers got excited, so I figured that veileds would too.

Does he keep his eyes open all the time during the day? He does keep them open throughout the day. He sleeps very regularly and probably usually closes his eyes about 30 minutes before 7:00.

If he's not feeling well, it doesn't surprise me that he didn't react to your flailing or being put on the floor. The lethargy and lack of appetite can be an indication that something is wrong.

Have you tried getting him to follow a movement (wiggling finger, for instance)? A bit, and it didn't seem to do much. It was evening though, so maybe I'll get more of a reaction today.

You said he's drinking, try putting a cricket between his teeth when his mouth is opening while he's drinking to see if he will eat it.

I know you said not to suggest the vet, but if he's sick there isn't much choice.

it's not that I will not take him to a vet, but I don't want to waste the money if there is something minor or normal that I am overlooking.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[Carlton]

I think I would look into dehydration a bit more. If he has some low grade internal problem going on hydration will be more critical. If he's on the low edge of being fully hydrated it could tip the balance for him. As you don't know the cage humidity level it might be drier than you realize. A dehydrated cham won't eat as well or stop. When he drinks, does he salivate heavily? That is often a sign that he's REALLY thirsty. How old is your UV light? You should be able to find out the type by looking at the base of the bulb. If you've been using the same bulb for 6 months change it. Try getting him out in real sunlight too.

 

[ckmazdaspeed3]

I did some research and I may have figured it out. One thing that I didn't see on the "how to ask for help" form and forgot to mention was bedding. I use (and now realize that I should not have) that brick of dirt you can purchase at a reptile store. While Elvis was showering I tried rinsing a couple pieces of fecal matter and found what I think (it is hard to tell) were some pieces of soil. So could he be backed up?

Two pieces of info: I didn't notice before, but his droppings do seem smaller. They seem a bit smaller than the female's, and she is much smaller than him. Also, I guess that this was not an issue in the past because I would always break off the crickets hind legs and place them on the cage walls so that he could eat them without having to hunt too much. However, about a month ago I noticed (and it could all be in my head) that he seemed to prefer going after the crickets that had fallen off the wall and were on the ground or a far away branch... Like he preferred to go after them (I'm probably full of it here, but that is how it seemed). So I started just scattering the crickets in his cage and he would go down to the lower branches and zap them off of the ground... maybe he started eating dirt at this point? However, there are no big chunks, and all of the soil in his plant post is covered with stones.

If he is backed up, is the only option surgery? I will do some more hunting around later for information on this, but I have a staff training class that I have to give first.

Oh, and he did not drink in the shower that I saw. I was watching about 50% of the time. But again, I usually only see him drink once every three days or so and when he does, he drinks fairly vigorously, but does not drool.

Also, maybe last night was just too late for him and that is why he appeared blind because he is definitely following my finger around today and this morning when he was getting his first basking time of the day, he did his puff up a bit karate stance when I tried to pick him up... though as always, he was super laid back once I had him

He is much more active today but as far as I can tell, still has not fed.

Is there any way to deal with back up without going to a vet, or am I SOL? Also, besides looking at fecal, is there any other way to tell if that is the problem?

 

[ckmazdaspeed3]

While researching Elves's problem, I noticed that a lot of the help threads have no conclusion. So, I thought I would make sure to give mine (hopefully one).\

To start off, I think the worry over blindness was completely inaccurate. It was simply too late to try and diagnose his problem and he was just tired. During the day, besides the fact that he is visually skinnier and feels lighter, he is acting completely normal.

Today was day 5 or 6 of not eating, so we went to the local reptile store (a 30 minute drive to the good one) to get some super worms, wax worms and roaches to try to stimulate his appetite. Before we left, my GFs son saw him eat a ficus leaf which was great, simply because it showed us that he was interested in eating something! So, while at the pet shop, the employee mentioned that they often hear of hunger strikes during weather changes and that maybe he was just too cold to eat well. And when I thought of it, the temps have dropped an average of 2-30* within the last few weeks and I had not taken a current cage temperature reading. As such, I picked up a higher wattage basking bulb to be sure, along with the additional food.

When we got back I placed the worms and a roach in a bowl on the ficus, along with the higher wattage bulb. He ate 2 super worms and 2 wax worms, plus the three crickets that we had left him while we went out!!!

So, I hate to count my chickens before they have hatched, but this seems to have been the result of either boredom with food or the cooling off that st. louis has experienced over the last few weeks.

So, I concluded (hopefully)my thread, so why don't all you slackers reading this that have in concluded threads of your own, go finish them so that researchers like me know the final outcome!

 

[kinyonga]

Watch to see if he poops. If you think he's backed up, you can try giving him a bit of pear babyfood....it often helps if its not a serious impaction.

I hope/assume you took the substrate out?