For everyone who KNOWS you can't keep chams in glass

[luevelvet]

Chris,

It's great to finally see that room meet your vision. It's beautiful and looks like it will serve you well with your future projects!

Good work buddy,

Luis

 

[Klemins]

Nice post, Chris. I've been trying to gather enough Exo terras to transfer more of my species into them as well. I've kept K. Uthmoelleri in them successfully in the past as well as Brookesia and Rhampholeons. The only downside is the price for new enclosures, which has been a major factor holding me back, since there are not many used ones available around me. I prefer not having to worry about drainage bins, and the short misting periods necessary for the glass enclosures. I've been considering trying to get a run of arboreal acrylic "euro" style terrariums made, as many dendrobates keepers build. Have you looked into this, or building your own? Good luck with a Parsonii enclosure as well, maybe you could modify a shower stall?

 

[Chris Anderson]

Thanks for the comments, everyone. Glad to hear there are more people who are utilizing these enclosures. They really are great.

So a question about aquariums. IF you stand them on end, with the screen facing you, will that provide enough air flow? Or will it be just as stagnent since there is no funnel affect but I would guess more of a clustered swirling affect.

As Brad indicated, one issue with this would be UVB. With only the front being mesh, however, I imagine the airflow wouldn't be as good as a true terrarium but it would probably be better then if it was laying normally.

Chris,

Thank you for this post.
I have been back and forth with this issue myself.
I house the cristatus in a 1/2 glass enclosure and have had great success.
I would like to add that I have never seen a chameleon recognize it's own reflection in glass. I believe this to be a myth.

-Brad

I too have never seen a chameleon respond to its reflection in glass. Another issue that has been cited is chameleons not understanding a glass barrier and stressing out trying to get through the glass. I've found that as long as there isn't something nearby for them to want to grab onto (light cords, etc.) and their enclosure has appropriate foliage cover and branches, this isn't a problem.

happy to read this post.

FYI
Where I live, one can purchase acrylic terrariums (similar venting and screen as those glass exoterras) in very large sizes, which I think are quite suitable for panthers. If I didnt build my own cages, those are what I would buy.

There isn't a website, by chance, for the company that makes these, is there?

I recommend for this a construction made of a aluminium as framework and light pvc or similar plastic plates on the back and the left and right side. For the bottom you could use plastic boxes for industrial useage or a glass construction. I don't know if all those parts are easily available in the US but here they are

I appreciate the recommendation. I may end up doing this. I'm also still trying to decide how I want to utilize the space I have left but I'll be sure to post photos once I make any other major changes.

yet while I'm sure glass will work great for C. pardalis, I also feel that it doesn't give a true change in weather conditions like a screen cage does.
in other words, for low land forest chameleons, the temps and humidity levels change alot throughout the day...something that glass has a hard time replicating. yet with screen cages it's easyer to replicate.

then again, someone like me also has to understand the if they go with a glass enclosure for the fall/winter/spring months, they might be forsed to change to a screen cage once summer hits...as the humidity in the summer stays around 50%-60% at night, but is 80%-90% durring the day.

There definitely are many ways to do things.

I've actually found that there is a good amount of variability in daily temps and humidity in these terrariums. Temps at night drop to the ambient temp of the room and raise during the day because of the lighting yet cool after misting. Humidity is sustained well in these enclosures but still fluctuates a lot when you only mist once a day.

Of course, the best enclosure for each person does have a lot to do with where people live.

it s interesting but in the summer and hot night for montane s species you need more air conditioner to refresh the room because glass leave last freshness no??

Because of the heat and humidity in Florida, air conditioning is typically found in every house and is a necessity for keeping temperatures appropriate for montane species. Because we need AC to keep temps at a good level, the air inside my house is fairly dry so these glass terrariums help maintain the humidity.

Chris

 

[Chris Anderson]

Chris, I was wondering if you could get closer pictures of the inside of the enclosures. I switched my bearded pygmies to this type of exoterra and am quite pleased. Never thought of raising babies in one, but I like that idea as well. I would really like to see some of the "insides" though, and if you change them for the different species. Thanks.

Here are a couple photos. As you can hopefully see (photos are a little dark on the outside of the cages) they are fully planted. I prefer this to bare bottom because it helps with drainage and humidity and avoids standing water on the bottom.

18x18x18 enclosure on left and 12x12x18 on right:

18x18x24:

Nice post, Chris. I've been trying to gather enough Exo terras to transfer more of my species into them as well. I've kept K. Uthmoelleri in them successfully in the past as well as Brookesia and Rhampholeons. The only downside is the price for new enclosures, which has been the only thing holding me back, since there are not many used ones available around me. I really like not having to worry about drainage bins, and the short misting periods necessary for the glass enclosures. I've been considering trying to get a run of arboreal acrylic "euro" style terrariums made, as many dendrobates keepers build. Have you looked into this, or building your own?

I picked a number of mine up on Craigslist but I ended up ordering most of them. Not cheap but I'm really pleased with the results.

I've hinted to Exo-Terra that a larger/taller model would be awesome but I think to do that they would need to change materials so it wasn't so heavy. I have also thought about building my own but haven't jumped on doing it yet because I'm slowly gathering ideas on how to do it best. I probably will end up doing so though.

Chris

 

[andersonii]

You use compact florecents?




Maria Andersonii

 

[sandrachameleon]

Where I live, one can purchase acrylic terrariums (similar venting and screen as those glass exoterras) in very large sizes, which I think are quite suitable for panthers. If I didnt build my own cages, those are what I would buy.

There isn't a website, by chance, for the company that makes these, is there?

Yes I think there is. I'll try to remember to look for it and will PM you.

 

[drewtt]

Yes I think there is. I'll try to remember to look for it and will PM you.

Hi Sandra,

Are you thinking of a Canadian company? If so, I'd appreciate it if you could pass the info on to me as well.

Drew

 

[ijmccollum]

Great thread -- an even greater photo! I started with exo-terra when I decided to try red eye tree frogs. I knew I would need to hold the humidity and maintain some air flow and liked the double door layout so I purchased the 12x12x18. The frogs have really thrived. So when I decided to try chameleons, I knew I wanted an exo-terra. I found a very sweet female jackson and set her up in a larger viv. Even though they require lower temps and higher humidity I started reading that open-wire was best. This really gave me pause. However she has been doing really well in that habitat for > 6 months now. The viv is terrium planted with some fake filler plants and climbing vines. Granted she gets alot of free range time in specific reptile friendly plants but I am relieved in hearing that others have success in this vivarium set up as well.

 

[Chris Anderson]

You use compact florecents?

Yes I do. Each of these enclosures has a 26W Exo-Terra ReptiGlo 5.0 Compact Fluorescent bulb and a 6500K Compact Fluorescent bulb for the plants. I don't worry about using them since chameleons have been shown to be able to modulate their UVB exposure, I measure basking spots with a Solarmeter 6.2 UVB meter to ensure appropriate radiance levels, and to the best of my knowledge, these bulbs have never been implicated in any of the unsafe wavelength issues. Because of their steep gradient and small zone of UVB output, I wouldn't recommend them for large species or tall enclosures but with these smaller species and smaller enclosures, I don't have a problem, particularly since I use the UVB meter.

Chris

 

[nightcrawler]

Wow Chris, you just smashed "The Code" that every new person is drilled into believing with just one thread. I really like that room, and it is well organized. I really like the fact that you put the name and sex of eat cham(s) on the enclosure, but if you have a whole room like you do its understandable to forget what is in what. My question is this, would building a cage yourself be just as effective as these with humidity. Say i built a 2'x2'3' cage for a Quadricorn, and had the top and front screen, the bottom hard (not screen) with or without substrate, and then had the two sides and back some kind of waterproof plastic (kind of like the stuff Chad made his drainage collectors out of). Would this cause a chimney effect? Or because the whole front is open, and not just a small area on bottom not really make the hot air rise, and suck in cold air on the bottom? Would that work just as effective or less?

-Matt

 

[sttines]

Chris, Are the bottoms of these enclosure glass? I have seen these at shows and there are some holes along the back for various "attachments", or there was at one time( this was awhile back) so is this what is providing the airflow? Also, how are you handling water drainage? I'm assuming that you are hand misting these but could you automate that?

Sorry, one more. What surface are these enclosures sitting on? If this is as they once were with holes along back, are the shelvessolid wood? Very nice job, indeed.

No, two more; do you have visual barriers in between or does the allure of the next cage not cause trouble?

 

[Chris Anderson]

Matt,

Fortunately I don't have such a large collection that I don't know every animal I have, what cage their in, which cages are empty, etc. The labels are so that if I'm away my girlfriend or whomever is taking care of all the animals knows what enclosures have what in them so they know how much to feed, how many animals to find, etc. I do also label each cage with bloodline info if the animal has been bred or has a known relative in someone else's collection.

Regarding the cage you described, they are very similar to some of my other enclosures and my old enclosures I replaced with these (http://www.chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=75). They get plenty of airflow and are better about holding humidity then full screen enclosures but not nearly as good at it as these enclosures.

Chris

 

[ciafardo 4]

Just goes to show you when KING CHRIS speaks everyone gets right in line not one challenge not one if this was someone new to this forum you vultures would've picked his/her bones clean!!!!!!! Thank you almighty chameleon king you are a great and wise king hahaha jUSt kidding. Chris i always love your post's and pic's they are by far one of the best but your montane room makes me wanna slit my wrists for i don't think i'm ever gonna get that far!!!!! Anyway another great thread Chris keep up the good work sire!

 

[Chris Anderson]

Chris, Are the bottoms of these enclosure glass? I have seen these at shows and there are some holes along the back for various "attachments", or there was at one time( this was awhile back) so is this what is providing the airflow? Also, how are you handling water drainage? I'm assuming that you are hand misting these but could you automate that?

Sorry, one more. What surface are these enclosures sitting on? If this is as they once were with holes along back, are the shelvessolid wood? Very nice job, indeed.

No, two more; do you have visual barriers in between or does the allure of the next cage not cause trouble?

The bottoms of these enclosures are glass and solid. I think the attachments you are talking about are channels on the back of the background where you can run cords (if you had a fogger or something in the cage) so they are out of sight. At the top of these channels on the back of the top of the cage, there are holes you can cover for these cords to come out. Anyway, these don't have anything to do with the ventilation.

There is venting is under the doors in the front and the top is completely screen as well. The fresh air flow is sucked in through the vents under the doors as the warm air rises out the screen top.

If you go to this link, at the top of the page it cycles through the venting and the channels showing exactly what they are (might help visualize it): http://www.exo-terra.com/en/products/glass_terrarium.php

I am hand misting them at the moment. I have a ~2" layer of hydroton balls on the bottom which provide light weight drainage. Above that there is a layer of screen mesh to keep the soil separate.

I am planning on automating the misting, however. Mistking.com has a digital timer (http://www.mistking.com/Seconds-Timer-p-16198.html) that can be programed down to the second so that you could time the misting cycles more accurately. I am planning on using screen top wedges (http://www.mistking.com/Screen-Top-Wedge-p-16186.html) in conjunction with their misting nozzles that are designed to be put in the corner and aimed (http://www.mistking.com/Value-T-Misting-Assembly-p-16200.html). In order to prevent dripping at the end of the misting cycle, I am planning on getting one of their ZipDrip Valves (http://www.mistking.com/ZipDrip-Valve-1-4-p-16228.html) which releases the pressure as soon as the timer cycle ends.

I have the enclosures on custom built shelves. Each shelving unit is 37" long and has three shelf levels. I build the shelves themselves from a frame of 2x2s with 1/2" plywood on top. The legs (5 per individual shelving unit) are made of 2x4s and there are 2x4 cross beams on the back for added stability.

For visual barriers, I bought the clouded plastic material used for overhead fluorescent light fixtures and cut them to size. Seems to work well.

If you have any other questions, I'd be happy to help.

Chris

 

[sttines]

Channels, yes, that is the better choice of description. Anyway, you know what I meant from reading your response. So these are not of use in anyway? Sounds like insect escape routes to me. The space under the door is a nice design. I have seen another person install tiny computer fans in their glass housing.

I retract the last question. I went back to to look further, where at first, I spent more time reading. It's a job well done but I am still old fashioned with my cages and hours of showers daily so probably not anything I'll attempt in the near or distant future but nice to see variety and something well designed, well thought out, orderly, and uncluttered

 

[CHAMaDdIcT]

thank you for shedding light on this subject but DANG! that is an AWESOME SETUP!!!!!! thats a dream to have

 

[kinyonga]

Chris said..."There is a widespread negative stigma and general misconception, particularly amongst US chameleon keepers, that you can not keep chameleons in glass enclosures"...I have been trying to tell people this for years and am amazed at how many people still post on the forum that you have to get that chameleon out of the glass cage and into a screen one.

However I have to disagree with you when you say that aquariums with only a screen lid are not good for chameleons due to airflow issues. I have kept C. chamaeleons in those cages and they have lived to be over 6 years old in them. Likewise for veileds, panthers, dwarf jackson's, fischer's, etc. and they have lived good long lives with no health issues.

IMHO, if the lights are placed to one side or corner of the cage, there is still a chimney affect. (Learned this "technique" from a science experiment in which an aquarium was used to show exactly this.)

When I first started keeping chameleons over 20 years ago there were only aquariums available or wooden cages with glass doors that only had a small cut-away area for the lights in the wooden lids....and I used both of those for mine. I never had any problems that I could say were as a result of having used them. My first WC adult C. chamaeleons were kept in the wooden cages with the glass doors and even though they were WC and adult when I got them, I had most of them for over 4 years.

I later switched to glass cages with screen lids and doors and have found that in this climate in the winter, the chameleons have to spend most of their time sitting up under the lights to keep warm and I worried about them getting too much UVB exposure and no exercise. I also worried about the lack of humidity but I couldn't increase it without ending up with mold in my house...so I switched to the exo-terra ones as soon as they came out.

I definitely agree with you about changes needing to be made in the misting/watering when using glass cages....but it has never been a problem.

I have never had a chameleon develop a respiratory in one of these cages and have never seen the reflections to be a problem either.

I'm glad you posted this and that it has had as much response as it has. Perhaps people won't say "you have to get that chameleon out of the glass cage and into a screen one right away" now!

 

[FL Chams]

Good Post Chris! We've only been talking about this forever...lol
Setup looks incredible!

 

[lisa h]

Chris, are your plants rooted into the soil, or are they in pots? I do mine in pots and they seem to work out ok, but maybe planting them directly into the soil has benefits?

 

[TylerStewart]

Chris is my hero. I wouldn't expect anything less from a guy whos grandfather basically built Anaheim, CA.