Eating 20 Crix/Day & Still Skinny?

[ataraxia]

20 pin heads arent much of a meal for him. might be the reason right there.

glad you have switched to larger prey. you should see improvement with this.

if you even think about supers, you better get your gut load game on. just a few words of caution.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Am I reading it right? 20 pinheads daily would be terribly inadequate for a 5-month old chameleon.
for sure go with the 1/2"+ crickets. dont be afraid of larger prey - If the width of the insect isnt larger than the gap between the chameleons eyes, and if the insect isnt longer than half the body of the chameleon, the prey is not too big.
Do Add in a few well gutloaded medium superworms, medium silkworms, small hornworms, large butterworms, etc. Crickets alone arent enough.

 

[clarkrw3]

20 pin heads arent much of a meal for him. might be the reason right there.

glad you have switched to larger prey. you should see improvement with this.

if you even think about supers, you better get your gut load game on. just a few words of caution.

I would agree that pins are way too small. At his age I would be giving 1/2-3/4 crickets. remember that the smaller they are the more outside shell and less good juicy nutritious insides ratio wise.

As far as Supers I have from 2-3mm all the way up to adults. I don't recommend using them as a staple but they are great treats and 1-2 a day can only be good for them. And my Supers are given a gutload of 20 different items as well as wet carrots, apples, and potato. So I don't know why you are throwing a word of caution.


As far as Vet I have used Todd but have heard great things about Jay as well.

 

[Geckoxp]

Not to sound silly but everyone jumped on getting him to the vet too quickly on this one..instead of asking the obvious...

Are you keeping track of his weight once a week using a scale?

What are you feeding your cham?

What size crickets...a cham of 5 months in all honesty should being eating 3/4 size crickets in my experience...plus possibly hornworms and supers at this pt.

What are you gutloading?


etc etc....others can chime in but if I am reading that you are feeding pinheads thats a minimum 4x too small...

 

[ataraxia]

Geckoxp: please read from the first post and not everyone jumped the gun

clarkrw3: Super worms... if they are inadequate to feed as a staple.........WHY ON EARTH DO YOU FEED THEM PERIOD? don't tell me variety or snack because you have other nutritious bugs to select from. im sure your chameleon isn't going to die without them but i bet it will if you feed these exclusively to them. how many more post's must come here " my chameleon hasn't ate in 3 weeks..WHY?" before people figure this out and stop advising others to try them...some have no clue that their chameleon may absolutely love these and will decline other prey. the owner then thinks "huh, he ate those supers yesterday. why not try again today". the animals eats them like crazy again. it turn into a vicious cycle and you end up with problems.. sorry, for the rant. it just makes no sense.

i learn from my own mishaps and lack of knowledge. my words of caution and advice are generally from experience. i don't want to see another follow blindly as i did, if i can help it.

 

[clarkrw3]

Geckoxp: please read from the first post and not everyone jumped the gun

clarkrw3: Super worms... if they are inadequate to feed as a staple.........WHY ON EARTH DO YOU FEED THEM PERIOD? don't tell me variety or snack because you have other nutritious bugs to select from. im sure your chameleon isn't going to die without them but i bet it will if you feed these exclusively to them. how many more post's must come here " my chameleon hasn't ate in 3 weeks..WHY?" before people figure this out and stop advising others to try them...some have no clue that their chameleon may absolutely love these and will decline other prey. the owner then thinks "huh, he ate those supers yesterday. why not try again today". the animals eats them like crazy again. it turn into a vicious cycle and you end up with problems.. sorry, for the rant. it just makes no sense.

i learn from my own mishaps and lack of knowledge. my words of caution and advice are generally from experience. i don't want to see another follow blindly as i did, if i can help it.

I am sorry but that doesn't really make any sense! No feeder should make up more than about 20% of the diet. So really there aren't any "staples" we (the chameleon community) have named three as "staples" crickets, dubia (or roaches) and silkworms. I would be willing to bet that a well gutloaded superworm is better than a poorly gutloaded cricket. And I KNOW a well gutloaded superworm is better than a high protein raised Dubia that can and will cause Gout.
I see it in my practice all day long. Parents that come it and tell my "my son or daughter will only eat x (insert candy, soda, cheetos etc). REALLY!!!! Are you that stupid!! Who keeps feeding it to them? Who buys it for them? Who is giving in and allowing them to dictate what they are or are not going to eat? Who is the parent?

You give them a variety of feeders because that's whats good for them. Supers are good for them but not in excess. Feeding them one or two (when young and eating everyday) a day. Or feeding one or two a week when adult is GOOD for them because it is variety. It's called BALANCED NUTRITION for a reason. Sandrachameleon just above your rant recommended supers along with many other feeders. Your human child will not starve if you don't feed them candy and soda because that's all they want. Your cham will not starve if you offer a variety.

BTW I was offering to help! Give away MY feeders to a fellow forum member. In AZ, in the summer, you have a smaller choice of feeders available to you due to the heat and the fact you can't have them shipped in without them being DOA. Many will not even take the chance to ship to you when its 114 outside here. So I raise my own feeders and am offering to share. DON'T blast me for sharing with a fellow forum member

As far as a vet visit goes. It's to get a fecal, period. In AZ I don't know of a vet that will allow a fecal without a visit. It is a good idea to get established with a vet and have fecals done every 6mo or so. This is especially true if you are feeding pet store crickets and not ones you have breed yourself.

 

[ataraxia]

I am sorry but that doesn't really make any sense! No feeder should make up more than about 20% of the diet. So really there aren't any "staples" we (the chameleon community) have named three as "staples" crickets, dubia (or roaches) and silkworms. I would be willing to bet that a well gutloaded superworm is better than a poorly gutloaded cricket. And I KNOW a well gutloaded superworm is better than a high protein raised Dubia that can and will cause Gout.
I see it in my practice all day long.

This is the main reason for a community to share and debate practices. hey if someone can be informed on it. lets go!

SO, what is a poorly gutloaded cricket? one raised on potato? i know for a fact, a cricket raised on a potato with proper supplements (dusting), the chameleon WILL live. it will NOT happen doing the same with a super worm. speak from experience, not what you read. you clearly have not done this because you are misinformed.

i do not recommend only gut loading with only potato in any instance.
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And I KNOW a well gutloaded superworm is better than a high protein raised Dubia that can and will cause Gout.
I see it in my practice all day long.

NEXT, gutloading with proper high protein ingredients isnt going to kill your chameleon. NOW, if you meant gut loading with animal protein. now that will cause problems over a period of time. how about inject the feeder with cyanide? same thing huh? no where within my post did i compare harmfully gut loaded insects. here is what i said.

if you even think about supers, you better get your gut load game on. just a few words of caution.

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I am sorry but that doesn't really make any sense! No feeder should make up more than about 20% of the diet.

NEXT, did you really read this somewhere? where exactly did you read this and i would like to see the credibility of the source. please i would like to be enlightened. i just want to keep on the right track.

your chameleon can and will live on one type of suitable feeder it's whole life, just in case you did not know.

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supers are horrible plain and simple. your turn!

 

[clarkrw3]

SO, what is a poorly gutloaded cricket? one raised on potato? i know for a fact, a cricket raised on a potato with proper supplements (dusting), the chameleon WILL live. it will NOT happen doing the same with a super worm. speak from experience, not what you read. you clearly have not done this because you are misinformed.

I give my Dubia and Crickets a dry gutload with 20 different items and a wet gutload with 9-10 items, but there are a lot of different ways to properly gutload a cricket.
I never said they could live with a staple of superworms. I would never have given any animal in my care a staple of superworms, or crickets, or Dubia or etc. I know a little too much about nutrition, physiology etc to do that.

NEXT, gutloading with proper high protein ingredients isnt going to kill your chameleon. NOW, if you meant gut loading with animal protein. now that will cause problems over a period of time. how about inject the feeder with cyanide? same thing huh? no where within my post did i compare harmfully gut loaded insects. here is what i said.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/can-feeder-insect-diets-contribute-gout-reptiles-64401/

I am not going to take the time to post other links but high levels of animal or plant protein in a gut load will result in the outcome of retained Uric Acid in the roach. The main difference btw plant and animal protein is in the ratio of amino acids that make up the protein.

NEXT, did you really read this somewhere? where exactly did you read this and i would like to see the credibility of the source. please i would like to be enlightened. i just want to keep on the right track.

your chameleon can and will live on one type of suitable feeder it's whole life, just in case you did not know.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/super-worms-ever-other-day-meal-64852/

Check the third post. I consider Sandrachameleon the leading cham nutrition expert on the forum, however, if she is not credible enough I am sure I have read both Dr. Chris Anderson and Dr. Ivan Alfonso say similar things. I just don't have the time to go searching the web for proof for you today.

supers are horrible plain and simple. your turn!

They are higher in fat...but I wouldn't call them horrible. And remember NOT a staple! But also remember that bodies can use fat too...and actually need it.
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/facehugger/insect.html

Once again I was trying to help...But I am pretty DONE with this...

 

[ataraxia]

o' come on, dont quit! i like a debate!

I know a little too much about nutrition, physiology etc to do that.

i want to learn something. plant proteins are considered incomplete proteins per these sites. i dont think the levels of uric acid will be the same given the two different proteins.

http://www.differencebetween.net/science/health/difference-between-plant-protein-and-animal-protein/

http://www.helium.com/items/1191303-plant-and-animal-proteins

i also consult with sandra blogs to get great information. heres her post from that same link you posted on dubia and uric acids.

Thanks for sharing your link. Makes a good deal of sense to me.
Also makes me feel reassured about my plant-based cricket and roach feeding regime.

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https://www.chameleonforums.com/super-worms-ever-other-day-meal-64852/
Check the third post. I consider Sandrachameleon the leading cham nutrition expert on the forum, however, if she is not credible enough I am sure I have read both Dr. Chris Anderson and Dr. Ivan Alfonso say similar things. I just don't have the time to go searching the web for proof for you today.

I suggest you aim to have no feeder make up more than 20% of your chameleons diet.

She suggest's and i bet they all suggest. again your chameleon will not die from the lack of prey variety!

SUPERS ARE STILL BAD!

 

[clarkrw3]

o' come on, dont quit! i like a debate!



i want to learn something. plant proteins are considered incomplete proteins per these sites. i dont think the levels of uric acid will be the same given the two different proteins.

http://www.differencebetween.net/science/health/difference-between-plant-protein-and-animal-protein/

http://www.helium.com/items/1191303-plant-and-animal-proteins

You are right they are different...by different they have a different ratio of amino acids that constitute the protein. However, rice and beans makes up a very complete protein. Also Soy makes up a fairly complete protein. I don't feed ANY bug or myself any animal protein so no need to worry here as well. My point was people give roaches dog/cat food etc to make them produce faster and that can be very bad for your cham. Much worse than having "less healthy" prey.

She suggest's and i bet they all suggest. again your cham
eleon will not die from the lack of prey variety!

SUPERS ARE STILL BAD!

Your right they most likely will not die. But that doesn't mean they will be healthy!! There are plenty of humans that don't die (at least right away) from their diet but they are far from health

 

[ataraxia]

Your right they most likely will not die. But that doesn't mean they will be healthy!! There are plenty of humans that don't die (at least right away) from their diet but they are far from health

they will be healthy using one properly gut loaded feeder *crickets. supers do not contribute any fantastic nutrition to a chameleon. you can get the nutrition your chameleon will need without this snack/candy bug.

i will go back to my original statement. if you want to feed supers. you better get your gut load game on.

 

[Elizadolots]

you better get your gut load game on.

Isn't that true of most "staples"?

 

[ataraxia]

Isn't that true of most "staples"?

they all have to eat something

im not going to down play gut loading one bit. although not all feeders have to have a broad selection of gut load ingredients that we give them. great vit supplement products like repcal, sticky tongue farms, trex and zoomed do the job. they are designed to make up for what feeders lack.

 

[Elizadolots]

So, what's the problem with supers? Understand that I'm terrified of them (it's a long story) so won't use them, but everything I've read said to gutload them before feeding them off...which makes them equal to crickets in my mind.

 

[ataraxia]

i wish i had access, the means, knowledge to do a experiment on/with them. in short they are a horrible made up bug people offer as a "snack" because they are nutritionally incompetent by themselves. offer a super the same one piece of food as compared to a cricket or dubia. hands down crickets and dubia will be a better choice. they offer nothing special to be a feeder in the first place.

heres the thing. people will go all crazy over spiral uvb bulbs, glass enclosures, water falls and substrate. all these can be dangerous in the same way a super worm. this bug can be abused and it will cause problems. the main important thing is they can potentially kill your animal. everyone hides it behind gut loading. i see you in the health clinic section of the forums frequently eliza. how many people dont gutload or even supplement properly? its not all the time so i dont want to give a misconception but i do see threads where people are having a problem with their chameleon eating. what was being offered as a staple? you guessed it a super worm. so why even offer it as a feeder, why even recommend it?

i personally had a bad experience with this bug. it was isolated within my colony and was the cause of huge appetite problems. i will preach it till im blue i the face. ***supers are not important or needed in any feeder regiment!!!

 

[heartben]

so. you guys ever have bacon before? Hows the cham lookin AZJ0SH?

 

[ataraxia]

i like lamp?

 

[AZChamFan]

Just a note on having worms shipped to AZ in the summer time: I had a good sized shipment of baby hornworms and small silkworms shipped to me last week....and it was obviously very hot here in the Phoenix area. The important thing is to use next day air, and have the parcel held for pickup at your nearest FedEx station. I have done this many times during the hottest summer months with no problems whatsoever. I usually get my worms from Mulberry Farms and they are happy to do this for you. This way, the parcel stays at the station in controlled temps. until you pick it up.

The only drawback to summer shipping is the higher rates you must pay for next day air, but it can certainly be done!

Just one more general comment on Dubia gutloading - I can't imagine feeling the need to feed a roach colony dog or cat food. I feed my colony a variety of leafy greens, several commercial gutloads including Repashy and Cricket Crack, some fruits and vegetables, etc., and I have to take a large batch of roaches to the local reptile store on a regular basis to get rid of the extras - they reproduce like mad without any animal protein! If your roaches are not doing well, it's most likely the housing conditions, not the lack of animal proteins.

 

[fluxlizard]

i wish i had access, the means, knowledge to do a experiment on/with them. in short they are a horrible made up bug people offer as a "snack" because they are nutritionally incompetent by themselves. offer a super the same one piece of food as compared to a cricket or dubia. hands down crickets and dubia will be a better choice. they offer nothing special to be a feeder in the first place.

I'm kind of a mixed opinion when it comes to any feeders.

How close are any of them really to wild insects that chams eat. Wild chams overwhelmingly choose flies and bees over other insects. Stomach content analysis proves this. This isn't what most of us feed our chams in captivity.

Then too I haven't been able to find anything other than fat/protein/calcium/phosphorous analysis of feeders. What about vitamins and minerals? Nobody seems to analyze that.

Then too, a couple of things have already been proven that are never taken into account-

Thing 1- Gutloaded bugs nutritional analysis can be significantly different than the ones used by companies selling insects. In other words, protein and fat content as well as calcium content might be significantly altered after gutloading correctly. This is actually fact, yet we never see analysis of cricket fresh from the farm vs cricket gutloaded on X-gutload.

Thing 2 is closely related- Insects actually grown on an excellent diet have a better nutritional content than those simply "gutloaded" for a few days prior to feeding.

What all this means- the nutritional analysis quoted by bug companies on the net might be a bit misleading, depending on what their insects are being fed. If you order full grown crickets that have been fed potatos and other inexpensive rations at the cricket farm, they might not even match the nutritional content analysis quoted on the net. And if you gutload those crickets, you will improve them nutritionally, but you will not improve them to the point they would have been if you had raised them from pinheads on an excellent diet. The same would hold true of any insect.

Lastly, I'd just point out that Bert Langerwerf bred, produced and grew zillions (many tens of thousands) of lizards on a mostly superworm diet over decades and they did great and produced great babies and lived long healthy lives. The same is true of some of the biggest leopard gecko breeders using mealworms for decades. Do most insect eating lizards have greatly different nutritional needs than chameleons? Maybe slightly, but greatly- I doubt it.

In his panther chameleon book, ferguson points out that he alternated between mealworms and crickets as feeders because they found that mealworms gutloaded calcium more effectively than did crickets. He produced several generations of panther chameleons in his labratory.

Personally, I'm a big believer in feeder variety. I like to feed something different every day and use mealworms about 1x per week.

But I strongly believe some feeders have been unnecessarily demonised and probably more than that- not using some as part of a variety probably limits some nutritional content as different feeders probably gutload different vitamins and minerals in addition to calcium more effectively than others. I haven't been able to locate any nutritional analysis of insects that accounts for things like vitamins and minerals, only fat/protein/calcium/phosphorous. But simple logic would indicate that different feeders will have different vitamin/mineral content.

I've been using mealworms and superworms as part of my total diet for over 20 years. Never been a problem for my animals. In fact, I believe strongly that they are a valuable component of a varied diet or I would not use them.

As far as why feed an individual food item if it is not a complete diet- it is wrong to look at a complete diet as each individual food item. Diets have to be looked at as a whole, parts work together and balance each other- like fergusons mealworms working alongside his crickets because the mealworms added calcium that the crickets could not. But it's even more complex than that- it's a balancing act of lots of ingredients vitamin ratios, mineral ratios, amino acids, etc. Real nutritionists know this. Heck- even people know this when feeding people. We don't sit down to a dinner with a single food item or a group of food items each one balanced for human needs. We eat a tomato for what it offers, some green leafy vegetables for what they offer and some green beans for what they offer us. Hobbyists these days for whatever reason seem to focus on each individual ingredient as if it were the whole diet which is a really blind approach. As humans we seem to know that the more variety in our diet, the more likely we are to get the nutrition that we need. For some reason we forget that when we are feeding animals...

********* To the original poster **********

You mentioned your insects are anywhere from pinhead to 1/2" size because the store you bought them from doesn't sort them. My suggestion is that this is most likely your problem. A lot of tiny insects aren't going to fill a growing chameleon for long. I did a feeding trial with a bunch of baby bearded dragons a couple of summers ago- (100 of them). I was trying to see how feeding lots of tiny roaches more often (3x per day) would effect growth rate vs my traditional feeding method (larger roaches 1x per day with leftovers roaming the enclosure). Growth rate took off and remained steady in my groups- all members grew at very remarkably the same rate which has never happened to me before either (I suspect dominant individuals were filled up earlier in the day, and the repeated feedings allowed subdominant individuals to also fill up every day). Anyway, the point is- I quickly discovered it took a *lot* more weight of tiny insects than it did of larger ones to keep the lizards filled. (Of course that also resulted in faster growth rates- your chameleon is small for his age, but then again- 20 tiny insects a day wouldn't give him much to grow on). Smaller insects are easier to break down and digest and so are digested and move on through much more quickly- the result is more total weight of food is necessary than when using larger insects. Order (or grow your own) larger insects consistently sized and I think your problem will magically disappear. Or continue to feed lots of small ones as long as your lizard doesn't get fat...

 

[ataraxia]

Lastly, I'd just point out that Bert Langerwerf bred, produced and grew zillions (many tens of thousands) of lizards on a mostly superworm diet over decades and they did great and produced great babies and lived long healthy lives. The same is true of some of the biggest leopard gecko breeders using mealworms for decades. Do most insect eating lizards have greatly different nutritional needs than chameleons? Maybe slightly, but greatly- I doubt it.

i have also raised leopards for years on a mealworm diet.

just to make sure everyone knows meal worms and super worms are two totally different bugs. they are the same family of insects but different genus and species.

Tenebrio molitor - mealworms

Zophobas morio - superworm

nutritional values everyone wants to read is not the same and varies per site. you are also right on misleading nutrition analysis of these bug. who knows what they were fed before testing. that is why i wished i could

i also breed bearded dragon on a small time scale. i produce around 200 dragons a year. in my own test. between supers and mealworms. super worms do not give the same results as meal worms in terms of weight gain. every dragon fed meal worms the gains were drastic to that of the dragons with supers worms.

i 100% believe the nutritional needs of a chameleon is GREATLY different and i mean as far away from a leopard geckos diet as you can possibly get. i also believe chameleons are one of the most demanding of any species in terms of diets. its more on the greatly side than slightly.

my quarrel with supers are from my own experiences. i did abuse them and a few animals got the raw end of the deal. this is not something i decided one day to make up. it happened, i saw the results first hand, i learned a valuable lesson.